Jump to content
BobDole

2019/2020 NCAA Rule Proposals

Recommended Posts

Those all sound like good changes to me. The MFF's need to be addressed but counting as losses might not be the correct way. I don't have a better suggestion so I am on board.

The 2 hour weigh in needs to be for all matches including the finals at NCAA. Guys shouldn't be able to weigh in at 11:00am and wrestle at 8:00pm. I don't think there are huge weight changes through the day but I am sure there are some and even if it is only 5 lbs it can be significant.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've given a lot of thought to the idea of a rule change to escapes and I've workshopped it a lot. Many people may think it doesn't need to change but I think it does. From the whistle it's tied 0-0. A TD and an escape make it a 1 point match 2-1. That's perfectly fair but another set of those makes it 4-2 and then 6-3 perhaps 8-4. I don't think it's fair to say that a person who has 3 TDs should only have a 3 point lead. He's done much more work than the other guy and is rewarded barely for it. Maybe he isn't prolific on top and gets turned in the second once or twice and he could be losing and then storm back in the third only to lose because those escapes and a potential riding time point added up for the other guy. Instead of a 3pt TD, which would be just absurd in my opinion, how about 1 escape point per period only. Obviously each guy gets the opportunity to score their point say both get TDs and both get escapes both get their point. I think this is better than a 3pt TD down and here's why. 1, a 3pt TD would make tech falls much much easier and that's no fun. The point of folkstyle is to have these long matches to really prove the point of who is better and who can gameplan to win their positions to come out on top. As an example, 3pt TDs would make trying to ride obsolete for guys like DeSanto which would make them worse in FS. 2, a guy could be up by 6 and lose in 5 seconds when he doesn't deserve to. Sure, if you get pinned you got caught but you feel confident you'd win the second meeting but if you're up 6-0 and he hits a homerun 7pt feet to back move your confidence is gone. Allowing 1pt for and escape is the right call. At the start of the second you can get your point and then wrestle. You get taken down you still have motive to get up and out due to riding time and turns and the guy on top has motive to ride due to the same ideas or he could cut him and still have the score be the same. It just makes more sense to me because it still promotes riding and it promotes neutral more than ever without being over the top. I'd love to hear feedback, arguments, or workshops on this idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

MFF: sounds like a good proposal to mitigate ducking and make tournaments more exciting

Video review: good intent and I guess first step to limit challenges, but in order for it to work the officials' review of the video needs to be thorough and fair. I'm not sure how I feel about a wrestler with a stall warning losing a tournament match because the refs don't overturn a bad call, like Suriano-Fix or Nolf-Hidlay. It'll just infuriate fans even more.

Weigh-ins: I'm not sure why the NCAA wants to pull back weigh-in times for duals/non-tournaments to two hours - won't that encourage more aggressive weight cutting? If they are trying to even-out the process, why not require one-hour weigh ins for all competition?

Hands to face: good

Shorts: cool, esp since both the loose fitting and hotpants-style shorts will be allowed, but will we actually see any D1 teams do it?

Hair length: fine, but I wonder what John Smith and Daton Fix think about the proposed change, esp if a wrestler's hair impedes a referee's view of the headgear? lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Ragu said:

I've given a lot of thought to the idea of a rule change to escapes and I've workshopped it a lot. Many people may think it doesn't need to change but I think it does. From the whistle it's tied 0-0. A TD and an escape make it a 1 point match 2-1. That's perfectly fair but another set of those makes it 4-2 and then 6-3 perhaps 8-4. I don't think it's fair to say that a person who has 3 TDs should only have a 3 point lead. He's done much more work than the other guy and is rewarded barely for it. Maybe he isn't prolific on top and gets turned in the second once or twice and he could be losing and then storm back in the third only to lose because those escapes and a potential riding time point added up for the other guy. Instead of a 3pt TD, which would be just absurd in my opinion, how about 1 escape point per period only. Obviously each guy gets the opportunity to score their point say both get TDs and both get escapes both get their point. I think this is better than a 3pt TD down and here's why. 1, a 3pt TD would make tech falls much much easier and that's no fun. The point of folkstyle is to have these long matches to really prove the point of who is better and who can gameplan to win their positions to come out on top. As an example, 3pt TDs would make trying to ride obsolete for guys like DeSanto which would make them worse in FS. 2, a guy could be up by 6 and lose in 5 seconds when he doesn't deserve to. Sure, if you get pinned you got caught but you feel confident you'd win the second meeting but if you're up 6-0 and he hits a homerun 7pt feet to back move your confidence is gone. Allowing 1pt for and escape is the right call. At the start of the second you can get your point and then wrestle. You get taken down you still have motive to get up and out due to riding time and turns and the guy on top has motive to ride due to the same ideas or he could cut him and still have the score be the same. It just makes more sense to me because it still promotes riding and it promotes neutral more than ever without being over the top. I'd love to hear feedback, arguments, or workshops on this idea.

Removing escape points makes mat wrestling meaningless for the vast majority of wrestlers.  This isn't FS, wrestlers should be good in all 3 phases (neutral, top, bottom) and if a guy is earning legit escape points, then give them to him.  and if a guy intentionally cuts somebody there should be a consequence to that, hence the escape point.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

Removing escape points makes mat wrestling meaningless for the vast majority of wrestlers.  This isn't FS, wrestlers should be good in all 3 phases (neutral, top, bottom) and if a guy is earning legit escape points, then give them to him.  and if a guy intentionally cuts somebody there should be a consequence to that, hence the escape point.

I'm not saying remove it, I'm saying give one escape point per period to each guy. It doesn't make mat wrestling meaningless it just promotes neutral more which I think most would agree is the more interesting of the 3 positions in the sport with bottom being the least interesting. Even if you earn your one escape point you don't want to be stuck down there and even when you've cut them once already or they escaped on their own you still want to try and ride if you have the chops to earn that riding time point or to get swipes. TDs are still only 2pts here so TD, cut, Td, cut ect. still takes effort to tech but riding remains a viable option.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can see what you're saying but this idea just works better than what we have now and better than 3 points per TD. Imagine 3TDs and 3 escapes in the first period with our current rule set. That's 6-3 and depending how long he rode the guy for he could have over a minute of riding time at that point (which doesn't matter until the end of the match but still significant). Now imagine the same thing with 3pt TDs, that's 9-3 a six point lead for 3 TDs which is almost half way to a tech and imagine if gets a TD right before the period ends with no escape now it's 12-3 and that's a nine point lead, a very hard amount of points to earn from the top position if the other wrestler couldn't get it done from the neutral position. Now let's imagine it one more time with my proposed rule change, 6-1 a 5 point lead and fairly earned by the superior neutral wrestler but fairly gives a shot to the other guy to maybe mount a comeback from top or neutral with those rules.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JeanGuy said:

Those all sound like good changes to me. The MFF's need to be addressed but counting as losses might not be the correct way. I don't have a better suggestion so I am on board.

The 2 hour weigh in needs to be for all matches including the finals at NCAA. Guys shouldn't be able to weigh in at 11:00am and wrestle at 8:00pm. I don't think there are huge weight changes through the day but I am sure there are some and even if it is only 5 lbs it can be significant.

Valencia likely would not have beaten Hall if he had to weigh in 2 hours before the finals like he did for the dual. There was a reason Valencia was dead in the 3rd period against Hall in the dual. Wrestling is often promoted as a sport that matches up opponents based on size. This is done for fairness and safety. Unfortunately there are times in wrestling where this is not the case. Everyone knows this is the case. I don’t understand the opposition to adjusting the time of the weigh in to ensure competitive parity. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Ragu said:

I can see what you're saying but this idea just works better than what we have now and better than 3 points per TD. Imagine 3TDs and 3 escapes in the first period with our current rule set. That's 6-3 and depending how long he rode the guy for he could have over a minute of riding time at that point (which doesn't matter until the end of the match but still significant). Now imagine the same thing with 3pt TDs, that's 9-3 a six point lead for 3 TDs which is almost half way to a tech and imagine if gets a TD right before the period ends with no escape now it's 12-3 and that's a nine point lead, a very hard amount of points to earn from the top position if the other wrestler couldn't get it done from the neutral position. Now let's imagine it one more time with my proposed rule change, 6-1 a 5 point lead and fairly earned by the superior neutral wrestler but fairly gives a shot to the other guy to maybe mount a comeback from top or neutral with those rules.

You have a good point, but giving only 1 escape point per period seems philosophically antithetical to the notion of "control" in folkstyle. You have to reward the escapee for getting out of the top wrestler's control (and punish the guy on top for not keeping the bottom wrestler down), plus the diminishment of mat wrestling as mentioned earlier. 

I don't have a good solution but one thing I was wondering was, what if point values increased the more you scored? Like the first two TDs in a match could be 2 points each, then the next two could be 3 point TDs, then everything after that 4 points. For escapes, the first two could be 1pt apiece, the next two 2 points, then everything after 3pts; etc. etc. with reversals and nearfall. In your scenario, the score would be 7-2 after the third TD (2 + 2 + 3 for the guy on top and 1+1 for the guy on bottom). The wrestler on top would be fighting hard to get a turn and not let the bottom man up because an escape would make the score 7-4. It also creates an incentive for both guys to maximize their point scoring while minimizing their opponents'. Probably too complicated to follow though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, pamela said:

You have a good point, but giving only 1 escape point per period seems philosophically antithetical to the notion of "control" in folkstyle. You have to reward the escapee for getting out of the top wrestler's control (and punish the guy on top for not keeping the bottom wrestler down), plus the diminishment of mat wrestling as mentioned earlier. 

I don't have a good solution but one thing I was wondering was, what if point values increased the more you scored? Like the first two TDs in a match could be 2 points each, then the next two could be 3 point TDs, then everything after that 4 points. For escapes, the first two could be 1pt apiece, the next two 2 points, then everything after 3pts; etc. etc. with reversals and nearfall. In your scenario, the score would be 7-2 after the third TD (2 + 2 + 3 for the guy on top and 1+1 for the guy on bottom). The wrestler on top would be fighting hard to get a turn and not let the bottom man up because an escape would make the score 7-4. It also creates an incentive for both guys to maximize their point scoring while minimizing their opponents'. Probably too complicated to follow though.

Definitely an outside of the box idea but it probably is too hard to follow for all parties. I thought the idea of making neutral wrestling more lucrative would be a step in the right direction. Neutral wrestling is the one similarity in folk and free that is practically the same. Par terre is definitely important but in order to get there in FS you need to get a TD and making neutral more of a focal point in folkstyle would be welcomed to most I would think but maybe I just haven't put enough thought into it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Make takedowns worth 3 points. Takedowns are the most exciting part of wrestling and we want to see more of them. If we make them worth three, wrestlers will work harder to get them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, ptz305 said:

Make takedowns worth 3 points. Takedowns are the most exciting part of wrestling and we want to see more of them. If we make them worth three, wrestlers will work harder to get them. 

Yeah that would be good. I still think with the new 4 point near fall, riding time points should be eliminated as the 4 point NF incentivizes turning on top, without the riding time bonus wrestlers might work harder to turn,if they can't get the turn, they can cut their opponent and work for a 3pt takedown...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have a rule change request, everything should have swipes. 2 swipes for a takedown, 7 swipes for stalling, 1 swipe for an escape, 2 swipes for a pin, 3 swipes for a reversal, 1 swipe for a false start, etc, etc.

This would make the ref's job much easier consequently ensuring they do a good job.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed that riding time should be eliminated now that we have a 4 point near fall. Most boring part of any match is when someone gets ridden for a long stretch without getting turned. I’ve never understood why we incentivize that with a riding time point. 4 point near fall is enough of an incentive/reward for guys who are tough on top. 

I’m also for a step out point. It rewards the aggressor, will make things more exciting, is easy and clean for officials to call, and will help make the transition to freestyle from folk easier. Maybe modify it a little from the current freestyle rules (both feet need to be out?)...but I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Valencia likely would not have beaten Hall if he had to weigh in 2 hours before the finals like he did for the dual. There was a reason Valencia was dead in the 3rd period against Hall in the dual. Wrestling is often promoted as a sport that matches up opponents based on size. This is done for fairness and safety. Unfortunately there are times in wrestling where this is not the case. Everyone knows this is the case. I don’t understand the opposition to adjusting the time of the weigh in to ensure competitive parity. 

I am sure the 2100 mile plus trip to Pennsylvania in the middle of December had nothing to do with it.......yawn

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, MDogg said:

Agreed that riding time should be eliminated now that we have a 4 point near fall. Most boring part of any match is when someone gets ridden for a long stretch without getting turned. I’ve never understood why we incentivize that with a riding time point. 4 point near fall is enough of an incentive/reward for guys who are tough on top. 

I’m also for a step out point. It rewards the aggressor, will make things more exciting, is easy and clean for officials to call, and will help make the transition to freestyle from folk easier. Maybe modify it a little from the current freestyle rules (both feet need to be out?)...but I think the pros far outweigh the cons.

Nicely put points which both go toward the idea of incentivizing action.

I would focus on the step out part.  They have tried to address going off the mat but no one is satisfied with the wildly inconsistent results from this highly discretionary rule. Step out would be an objective rule.

And it would likely transform matches with action. Watching freestyle over the weekend was as usual a revelation with respect to the amount of offense.  

I generally like the emphasis on control in folk and I'm fine with the idea that three position mastery is part of wrestling.  But there is a big problem with both out of bounds and stalling. The refs were told to get aggressive on stalling and seemed to be so on Thursday in Pittsburgh but by Friday night that was gone.  Anything subjective seems to not work.  I'm not positive but am hopeful and optimistic that a step out could be a big improvement. 

If they did this I'd be ok leaving in riding time to emphasize a commitment to three position wrestling and to also do only one such major change at once.  

Push out would be such a huge change that they'd have to think of a good way to test and then a fair way to implement it. It wouldn't be easy.  But, again, watch the action in freestyle matches and analyze for yourself how much the push out rule incentivizes action in neutral. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Greatdane67 said:

I am sure the 2100 mile plus trip to Pennsylvania in the middle of December had nothing to do with it.......yawn

The traveling didn’t seem to affect him in Pittsburgh. Now go back to sleep. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×