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Let’s begin the Cox/Nickal discussion now

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6 hours ago, Ragu said:

Not enough people are giving Cox, world champion, enough respect. He beat Dake and DT to make teams in the past and they had years of FS experience in them already. Maybe the next time they meet, if they ever do, Bo could get him but the advantage is Cox's 100% this go around

I completely agree.  I think during his time in college because you had Snyder, Dake, and Taylor he was not recognized for his ability.  Also if I'm not mistaking he never redshirted.  Yet he was a 3x NCAA championship.  His only losses if I'm not mistaking are to Snyder, Mclintosh, Wellington by DQ, and one other person his true freshman year.  He had like 4-5 loses.  He was also a sensational freestyler, beating Snyder in Fargo.  He qualified the US for the Olympics when it had yet to be qualified, and won bronze.  Then he beat Dake and Taylor.  Went on to win world bronze.  Then won world gold.  So in essence he is the only person on team USA to have wins at some point over 3 of our other 4 current US world gold medalist.  Cox is no joke.  I don't get how so many people think he is so likely to get Beat.  Yes, Bo dominated college.  So did Dake, Taylor, Zain, and Ringer.  It's not that easy to come in and knock off a world champ right out of the gates.  Plus J'Den is what, 25?  He is hitting his prime, not coming to the end of it. 

 

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On a final note regarding the veterans in general, the experience with match strategy alone puts them at an advantage.  Little things like knowing when to take a step out or get one. How to put your opponent on the shot clock. When to shoot if you are on the clock or give up a point. When to throw the brick. When to drop and be "grounded on the edge".  The things that gave fix the win over Gilman because he had equal international experience despite it was at the junior level.  These strategies that are second nature to our guys who have been at it for a couple years makes a big difference against those coming right out if college. 

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14 hours ago, treep2000 said:

I'm not advocating for this logic, but I "think" that this is the logic that people use when underestimating Cox:

* His win over DT was "unfair", due to the slip n' slide situation, and thus, only "partially counts"

* His win over Dake was "unfair", because Dake was half his size and gave him everything he could handle

* His win at 92kg was in a "depleted" weight class internationally

* His march to his World Championship was riddled with close scoring matches (unlike Dake's high amplitudes and Taylors humiliation of his opponents)

* Wins over Snyder is in practice.  JO "owned" Yianni too

Again...  I'm NOT advocating this logic, but I think that these types of thoughts run through people's minds when they're hypothesizing and projecting their thoughts.  Add in the fact that Nickal is literally tossing men around like Rag Dolls, and these men can also wrestle really really really well... yeah... the recipe is there for naysayers.

That might be a line of thought people are using, but calling it 'logic' is incorrect.  

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Lol if this is any other world champion (Domestic or abroad) vs "Popular American Athlete" the fans would say "This will be exciting I hope we do well"
But since its Bo aka the second coming of Christ
vs

Our genuinely most underrated guy... (I personally have him beating Snyder or the Olympic spot and had him winning the worlds last year...Even made a thread asking "why we aren't considering Cox as a Gold contender")

Fan Bias is just out of control. Bo is great, but can he beat the 3x World/Olympic medalist/Defending champ in a 2 of 3 series...... PROBABLY NOT
if Bo continues on through 2024, maybe, but right now.... Cox has to be at least a 3:1 favorite. 
Eh well... let the debate rage 

Edited by spladle08

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31 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Lol if this is any other world champion (Domestic or abroad) vs "Popular American Athlete" the fans would say "This will be exciting I hope we do well"
But since its Bo aka the second coming of Christ
vs

Our genuinely most underrated guy... (I personally have him beating Snyder or the Olympic spot and had him winning the worlds last year...Even made a thread asking "why we aren't considering Cox as a Gold contender")

Fan Bias is just out of control. Bo is great, but can he beat the 3x World/Olympic medalist/Defending champ in a 2 of 3 series...... PROBABLY NOT
if Bo continues on through 2024, maybe, but right now.... Cox has to be at least a 3:1 favorite. 
Eh well... let the debate rage 

It’s odd to even have to argue that the reigning world champ is the favorite to win Final X. Yet here we are.

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 Bo is crazy talented offensively but when he has lost it has almost always been because he has gotten thrown to his back. See the MyMar matches and his FS losses to Heflin. If he's smart enough to avoid those tie ups then I think he has a "chance".

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I think we're all going to find out soon enough.  

I sincerely doubt that anyone else at 92kg is going to touch Bo, thus setting up the Final X we all want to see.  

I predict a low scoring bout in match one.  Match two, I predict a higher scoring bout, as Bo will "open up".  I predict the "open up" by Bo for two reasons:

* If he lost the first match, which would be dictated by Cox, then he opens up, maybe gets a few TD's, but also suffers his own exposures, thus a higher score

* If he won the first match, he's going to go out and attempt to "prove a point".  

Either way, it's going to be "fun".

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So wait... Cox is going to go up and take out Snyder(who should be sitting out until finals or however they give medalists the benefit of the doubt next year)? They have already said they're looking to give previous years medalists at non-Oly weights some form of bye as well at Oly weights.

What's the deal then?

Unless you're assuming Bo will go down to 86? I think Bo will end up going up after he gets his medal this year.

That will leave Cox with two huge hurdles, and that isn't even including the qualifying process or the Trials themselves

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12 hours ago, scramble said:

I completely agree.  I think during his time in college because you had Snyder, Dake, and Taylor he was not recognized for his ability.  Also if I'm not mistaking he never redshirted.  Yet he was a 3x NCAA championship.  His only losses if I'm not mistaking are to Snyder, Mclintosh, Wellington by DQ, and one other person his true freshman year.  He had like 4-5 loses.  He was also a sensational freestyler, beating Snyder in Fargo.  He qualified the US for the Olympics when it had yet to be qualified, and won bronze.  Then he beat Dake and Taylor.  Went on to win world bronze.  Then won world gold.  So in essence he is the only person on team USA to have wins at some point over 3 of our other 4 current US world gold medalist.  Cox is no joke.  I don't get how so many people think he is so likely to get Beat.  Yes, Bo dominated college.  So did Dake, Taylor, Zain, and Ringer.  It's not that easy to come in and knock off a world champ right out of the gates.  Plus J'Den is what, 25?  He is hitting his prime, not coming to the end of it. 

 

He lost to Gadson and Wellington as a freshman. Lost to Snyder and McIntosh at NCAAs as a sophomore. Lost to Wellington (by DQ) his junior year, and went undefeated as a senior. I'll be wearing my Mizzou gear when J'Den and Bo (almost certainly) meet up, but regardless, we'll have a solid representative at this weight!

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If Bo can't get by Cox by 2020, we may never see Bo again on the mat. MMA is his route 

Cox is perhaps the most underrated wrestler on our team. Can't pick against him but if Bo takes 1 it will be the first of the best of 3. Cox doesn't watch film so he makes adjustments after the second match. Taylor crushed him the first bout 

 

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Is this speculation or has he discussed his MMA ambitions?

He discussed this, his plan is that after 2020 he plans to pursue his MMA career. I believe Cassar is in the same boat 

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When was the last time the US had a reigning world champ that everyone around him says has “jumped levels” since we’ve seen him last?

If he weren’t the same weight as Sadulaev (at least in Olympic years) I’d consider it a real possibility he goes down as one of the top 3 or 4 American freestyle wrestlers of all time when it’s all said and done. He’s 25 with an Olympic medal and world championship under his belt.

 

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I will add this: Bo has never impressed at freestyle and he didn’t beat a particularly challenging field in Vegas. Bo never made a junior world team and lost to people such as Heflin and Zahid in 2017 and lost to Gabe Dean in high school. Meanwhile Cox made the senior world team first try out and medaled every time he did. Bo hasn’t beaten anyone with Cox’s resume. The people he man handled were simply not as good as Cox. 

If Bo beats Cox it will be a shocker. He’s really talented but I didn’t see anything that suggests he’s going to win.  

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1 hour ago, BigTimeFan said:

I will add this: Bo has never impressed at freestyle and he didn’t beat a particularly challenging field in Vegas. Bo never made a junior world team and lost to people such as Heflin and Zahid in 2017 and lost to Gabe Dean in high school. Meanwhile Cox made the senior world team first try out and medaled every time he did. Bo hasn’t beaten anyone with Cox’s resume. The people he man handled were simply not as good as Cox. 

If Bo beats Cox it will be a shocker. He’s really talented but I didn’t see anything that suggests he’s going to win.  

Bo sure made Zillmer look like he didn't belong on the mat with him.

Cox couldn't do that to him last year.

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59 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Bo sure made Zillmer look like he didn't belong on the mat with him.

Cox couldn't do that to him last year.

Transitive property doesn't always hold, but I am getting very excited to see this potential Nickal / Cox matchup.  This will be right there with Dake/Ringer or Dake/Zahid again.

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My thoughts on the potential matchups, and "buzz" factor (out of 10):

57 - Fix vs. Gilman/Lee - Buzzfactor:  8

If its Fix/Gilman, it's the rubber match and Gilman is a world medalist.  If its Lee, it's simply the matchup that we've been waiting for years to see, at the senior level

61 - Colon vs. Brewer - BF:  7

Points will be scored.  Period.

65 - Yianni vs. Zain/Oliver - BF:  8

It's Yianni, aka Mr. Fantastic vs. who we all originally thought would be this years standard bearers.  Is it Yianni's time to claim the throne, or not quite yet?

70 - Deakin vs. Green / Nolf - BF:  6

If it's vs. Green, we "expect" Green to exact revenge.  If it's vs. Nolf, we expect Nolf to dominate.

74 - JB vs. Imar - BF:  5

Don't get me wrong, it's a great match, but compared to all the others... meh... not so much. 

79 - Dake vs. Ringer / Zahid:  BF:  9

Dake is Dake, but Ringer and Zahid may be the next best two 79kg guys in the entire world.  Seriously.  

86 - Taylor vs. Downey/Helfin/Does it matter:  BF: 3

I'm a huge Taylor fan.  This match is going to be a cakewalk for DT, who may be in the argument for the best P4P in the world, based on the way he absolutely is wrecking everyone, for what is now going on his 2nd year of doing so.  Taylor by Tech or Pin...

92 - Cox vs. Nickal:  BF:  10

Hence the reason for this thread.

97 - Snyder vs. Gadson:  BF: 2

Same argument as Taylor, above.  Snyder by tech, again, and again, and again.

HWT - Gwiz vs. Coon:  BF:  7

Coon has what it takes to push Gwiz.  Buzzworthy match in my book!

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DT isnt even in the top 3 p4p in the USA let alone the world. I'd probably have him at number 5 after Burroughs, snyder, Cox and Dake, I don't see how you can rightfully place him above any one of these four guys (DT record vs 3 of these is collectively something like 1 and 12) though I admire DT is the ultimate fantasy warrior so why not say he is top pro in the world..

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1 minute ago, Perry said:

DT isnt even in the top 3 p4p in the USA let alone the world. I'd probably have him at number 5 after Burroughs, snyder, Cox and Dake, I don't see how you can rightfully place him above any one of these four guys (DT record vs 3 of these is collectively something like 1 and 12) though I admire DT is the ultimate fantasy warrior so why not say he is top pro in the world..

i can rightfully have my opinion just fine thank you very much... ;-)

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Bo sure made Zillmer look like he didn't belong on the mat with him.

Cox couldn't do that to him last year.

I guess if you only look at the 2-0 score at the U.S. Open.  Cox also beat Zillmer 5-2 and 10-0 (in just over a minute) at Final X last year, never giving up a takedown (unlike Bo).  Cox doesn't seem to care if he scores a lot or gets a tech, but his matches against Zillmer were never in doubt.  

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