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Let’s begin the Cox/Nickal discussion now

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I know mine is a really unpopular opinion, but I've always felt at the senior men's level, not getting scored on at all is more impressive than scoring lots of points. The latter is funner to watch, but the former, I'd argue, is much harder to do at the highest level, especially against medalist-level opponents.

Separately, I am surprised to just learn about Nickal's MMA plans. He's about as good an athlete as there is at his size, so he'll probably do well (reminds me a bit of a white Jon Bones Jones), but I really had him as DT's heir at 86 kg. We will lose a very good prospect who will never realize his full freestyle potential.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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55 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

Transitive property doesn't always hold, but I am getting very excited to see this potential Nickal / Cox matchup.  This will be right there with Dake/Ringer or Dake/Zahid again.

I will say that if it goes to three I favor Cox heavily.

Can't beat a slip'n'slide...

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I agree Cox is one of our most underrated guys and is overshadowed by having all-time greats Burroughs and Snyder as well as NCAA superstars Dake and Taylor in the same era. I would definitely favor Cox over Bo until proven otherwise. With that said, we also sometimes forget that more and more guys are coming out of NCAA wrestling ready to take on the world. Cox, Burroughs, Snyder, Coon, and even Gilman came right out and won World medals. Dake and Taylor probably could’ve if they could’ve made the team. Yianni just beat several world class senior wrestlers as a sophomore in college. Why couldn’t Bo be on that level? His college career suggests he is at least as good as those guys. I’m not saying I would bet on Bo making the team and getting a medal, but i wouldn’t be shocked either.

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11 hours ago, DocBZ said:

 Bo is crazy talented offensively but when he has lost it has almost always been because he has gotten thrown to his back. See the MyMar matches and his FS losses to Heflin. If he's smart enough to avoid those tie ups then I think he has a "chance".

Tie ups?  Most of J'Dens offense is from space. His defense is often in scrambles because of his insane flexibility; especially for a big guy.  The dude can do full splits.  If Bo doesn't tie up he definitely will not win.  Almost every domestic loss J'Den has had since college is with an ankle pick from a tie up.  His loss to Snyder at NCAA and his 2 losses to McClintosch we're because of picks.  

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

I agree Cox is one of our most underrated guys and is overshadowed by having all-time greats Burroughs and Snyder as well as NCAA superstars Dake and Taylor in the same era. I would definitely favor Cox over Bo until proven otherwise. With that said, we also sometimes forget that more and more guys are coming out of NCAA wrestling ready to take on the world. Cox, Burroughs, Snyder, Coon, and even Gilman came right out and won World medals. Dake and Taylor probably could’ve if they could’ve made the team. Yianni just beat several world class senior wrestlers as a sophomore in college. Why couldn’t Bo be on that level? His college career suggests he is at least as good as those guys. I’m not saying I would bet on Bo making the team and getting a medal, but i wouldn’t be shocked either.

I agree with your assessment 100% regarding Bo's talent level as well as what all the others did out of college.  For me the piece that gets forgot is that with the exception of Snyder, who beat out Varner, none of them had to take the spot from a returning world medalist.  Let alone a gold medalist, or even a multiple world medalist. It's not like Gilman, Green, or Logan where they were up and down, medaling some years and not orhers. Plus fix and Yianna have a lot of international experience; especially Fix.

Cox is 3/3 in world medals.  Bo isn't the number 3 in the world who has to beat a number 10 or non-ranked guy to make the team. He has to beat the number 1 guy in the world....  Twice in 3 matches.  As you said about Dake and Taylor.  Both were probably top 3 in the world....  But they had #1 in front in them.  Personally I think Bo could definitely medal at world's. So it isn't a matter if he has the potential or is one of the top guys in the world.  The issue is he has to beat the #1 guy in the world, Twice, in one day.  That is an entirely different challenge.  

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11 hours ago, scramble said:

Tie ups?  Most of J'Dens offense is from space. His defense is often in scrambles because of his insane flexibility; especially for a big guy.  The dude can do full splits.  If Bo doesn't tie up he definitely will not win.  Almost every domestic loss J'Den has had since college is with an ankle pick from a tie up.  His loss to Snyder at NCAA and his 2 losses to McClintosch we're because of picks.  

Not making any predictions, but I have seen Bo shoot from farther away than almost anyone and take guys down very efficiently. He is very quick. 

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17 hours ago, nhs67 said:

Bo sure made Zillmer look like he didn't belong on the mat with him.

Cox couldn't do that to him last year.

That's all true, but who does Cox make look like they don't belong on the mat with him? It's like Dake vs Taylor for one: Taylor obliterates people and Kyle didn't, so to this day a lot of people can't imagine Dake beating Taylor, despite the fact that Taylor has never beaten Dake. I would actually say that Yianni up till the quarterfinals of the US Open was like this. Look at NCAAs, he barely beat Jayden and then barely beat McKenna. So Cox doesn't thump people. Bo does.

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13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Not making any predictions, but I have seen Bo shoot from farther away than almost anyone and take guys down very efficiently. He is very quick. 

Bo has never beaten anyone at Cox's level. Not once that I know of anyhow.

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16 hours ago, Perry said:

DT isnt even in the top 3 p4p in the USA let alone the world. I'd probably have him at number 5 after Burroughs, snyder, Cox and Dake, I don't see how you can rightfully place him above any one of these four guys (DT record vs 3 of these is collectively something like 1 and 12) though I admire DT is the ultimate fantasy warrior so why not say he is top pro in the world..

Only that DT was a wrecking ball all of last year and this year in the world.  He has been a most dominant wrestler pinning and teching just about everyone in sight.

mspart

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6 minutes ago, mspart said:

Only that DT was a wrecking ball all of last year and this year in the world.  He has been a most dominant wrestler pinning and teching just about everyone in sight.

mspart

DT has soundly beaten who many thought was a top 3 P4P guy in Yazdani.  And he's beaten him multiple times... the only close matches he's really had had been with Torrealba (Cuba) and Yazdani.  All other matches have essentially ended as techs or pins.  On the international stage, that "bonus rate" is incredible, which definitely puts DT in the conversation for top X P4P.

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10 minutes ago, mspart said:

Only that DT was a wrecking ball all of last year and this year in the world.  He has been a most dominant wrestler pinning and teching just about everyone in sight.

mspart

I believe Taylor was named UWW’s men’s freestyler of the year. That alone should put him in the p4p discussion (if the p4p ranking is based on recent results rather than on career results)

Sadualev, obviously, is also going to be in the discussion. 

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There's a lot going on in this discussion....

1). I do find it comical that people believe that it's a given that Bo's strength will translate in the match with J'den. I don't know how they can come to this conclusion. Bo has never wrestled a guy remotely in the same conversation with J'den in terms to positional and functional strength. Will Bo's strength translate over well in the match against J'den....maybe. But...no one has any indication it most definitely will given the people Bo has wrestled up to this point. 

2). When will people give up the "Sweat Match"? It's a tiresome debate. It's tough to believe, but DT lost. We know. It's unheard of....except for the multiple losses he had against Dake......and Bubba. But, yes, it's crazy to believe he lost. Kinda how DT should have been DQ'd for stalling right before pinning Yazdani in the 2017 WC?? Things happen. People win. People lose. On goes the world. 

3). The Bo/Yianni comparison in terms of freestyle is a little comical. Has Bo ever made a World Team at any level? What top level world contenders has Bo beat....at any level? Yianni was a 2x World Champion at the Cadet level. Injuries kept him away from the Junior Circuit. And then he comes out at the US Open at beats Zain (Prior World Team Member), Molinaro (Former Olympian), and JO (Respected in the freestyle world, 3rd at the Dogu). Who did Bo beat....Mach and Zillmer. Not exactly world beaters. Bo is an unreal talent, but the Yianni comparison in the realm of FREESTYLE is comical. 

All in all Bo has a chance....I mean he does have Cael and Varner in his corner and he gets to train with DT. I just believe are trying to translate his titles in folkstyle to some sort of super human in the realm of freestyle is a little absurd. I will give him credit. He is smart. He isn't beating Snyder/Taylor in the foreseeable future and taking his talents to MMA where he can make some serious money. Kudos to him and hopefully his career is unreal over in that arena!

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20 minutes ago, Katie said:

I believe Taylor was named UWW’s men’s freestyler of the year. That alone should put him in the p4p discussion (if the p4p ranking is based on recent results rather than on career results)

Sadualev, obviously, is also going to be in the discussion. 

P4P Rankings....

1). Saduluev

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

2). The rest of the world. 

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18 minutes ago, MrDream said:

There's a lot going on in this discussion....

1). I do find it comical that people believe that it's a given that Bo's strength will translate in the match with J'den. I don't know how they can come to this conclusion. Bo has never wrestled a guy remotely in the same conversation with J'den in terms to positional and functional strength. Will Bo's strength translate over well in the match against J'den....maybe. But...no one has any indication it most definitely will given the people Bo has wrestled up to this point. 

2). When will people give up the "Sweat Match"? It's a tiresome debate. It's tough to believe, but DT lost. We know. It's unheard of....except for the multiple losses he had against Dake......and Bubba. But, yes, it's crazy to believe he lost. Kinda how DT should have been DQ'd for stalling right before pinning Yazdani in the 2017 WC?? Things happen. People win. People lose. On goes the world. 

3). The Bo/Yianni comparison in terms of freestyle is a little comical. Has Bo ever made a World Team at any level? What top level world contenders has Bo beat....at any level? Yianni was a 2x World Champion at the Cadet level. Injuries kept him away from the Junior Circuit. And then he comes out at the US Open at beats Zain (Prior World Team Member), Molinaro (Former Olympian), and JO (Respected in the freestyle world, 3rd at the Dogu). Who did Bo beat....Mach and Zillmer. Not exactly world beaters. Bo is an unreal talent, but the Yianni comparison in the realm of FREESTYLE is comical. 

All in all Bo has a chance....I mean he does have Cael and Varner in his corner and he gets to train with DT. I just believe are trying to translate his titles in folkstyle to some sort of super human in the realm of freestyle is a little absurd. I will give him credit. He is smart. He isn't beating Snyder/Taylor in the foreseeable future and taking his talents to MMA where he can make some serious money. Kudos to him and hopefully his career is unreal over in that arena!

1) Cox will undoubtedly be stronger in most every aspect. I don't doubt that. Other than his hips.

2) When you go back in time and make the match not happen. It happened. Ignoring it as if it wasn't a factor is ruhtardid.

3) Got me there. Completely different styles.

AIA) Cox also has a chance. .... .... ....... aaaaand Bo will pin Snyder next year in their best of three at least once. I do believe that means he stands a chance. 

Edited by nhs67
I have fat fingers and need to spellcheck.

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

I believe Taylor was named UWW’s men’s freestyler of the year. That alone should put him in the p4p discussion (if the p4p ranking is based on recent results rather than on career results)

Sadualev, obviously, is also going to be in the discussion. 

If there is a wrestling discussion between Taylor and Sadulaev, is it possible that said discussion has any merit at all?  

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11 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

If there is a wrestling discussion between Taylor and Sadulaev, is it possible that said discussion has any merit at all?  

Exactly. 

Let me know when Taylor dominates 2 OLYMPIC weights and then we can have a discussion. 

One at 19 short matched everyone at the World Championships

One at 19 was getting pinned by Bubba Jenkins

Enough with the nonsense. 

 

Edited by MrDream
Added more content

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9 minutes ago, MrDream said:

Exactly. 

Let me know when Taylor dominates 2 OLYMPIC weights and then we can have a discussion. 

One at 19 short matched everyone at the World Championships

One at 19 was getting pinned by Bubba Jenkins

Enough with the nonsense. 

 

oh c'mon now David Taylor was older than 19 when Bubba pinned him

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18 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

If there is a wrestling discussion between Taylor and Sadulaev, is it possible that said discussion has any merit at all?  

Looking purely at last year’s results, you can easily have a discussion between Sadulaev and Taylor as the best wrestler p4p. 

I’d put Sadulaev at #1 based on his sensational run at worlds. But he did have close matches earlier in the year. 

Edited by Katie

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2 minutes ago, Katie said:

Looking purely at last year’s results, you can easily have a discussion between Sadulaev and Taylor as the best wrestler p4p. 

I’d put Sadulaev at #1 based on his sensational run at worlds. But he did have close matches earlier in the year. 

Throwing away all of that useful information (career results) is rationale only if you want to have that discussion just for the sake of it. 

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2 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

Throwing away all of that useful information (career results) is rationale only if you want to have that discussion just for the sake of it. 

I literally made the disclaimer “if the p4p ranking is based on recent results rather than on career results”

It would certainly be a logical way to create a p4p list.

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8 minutes ago, Katie said:

Looking purely at last year’s results, you can easily have a discussion between Sadulaev and Taylor as the best wrestler p4p. 

I’d put Sadulaev at #1 based on his sensational run at worlds. But he did have close matches earlier in the year. 

He had a singular close match.....one. 

He wrestled 20 matches in 2018. He was 20-0. 14 of the 20 matches were shortened. He had decisions of 6-0, 6-0, 2-1, 5-0, 11-2, and 8-1. 

That's decent. 

I think we can also agree DT's biggest threat is a guy who can't control is weight, therefore 2 day weigh-ins kill him. DT is wrestling a bit of a watered down 86kg. Heck, Snyder was beat by a 3rd or 4th string Russian guy at Yarygin this year. So making the 97kg in itself is a tall task for Saduluev. 

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