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Let’s begin the Cox/Nickal discussion now

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

I literally made the disclaimer “if the p4p ranking is based on recent results rather than on career results”

It would certainly be a logical way to create a p4p list.

Right, I was acknowledging your disclaimer and saying that I find it unwise to throw away past information.  It is one thing to update as new information comes in but discarding past results doesn't seem likely to improve rankings.  

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4 hours ago, BigTimeFan said:

Bo has never beaten anyone at Cox's level. Not once that I know of anyhow.

Not counting practices, to the best of my recollection he hasn't even wrestled anyone at that level. 

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50 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

Right, I was acknowledging your disclaimer and saying that I find it unwise to throw away past information.  It is one thing to update as new information comes in but discarding past results doesn't seem likely to improve rankings.  

It’s not that crazy to throw out past results if you want to rank how people are currently performing.

Let’s say, next year, Sadulaev barely squeaks by all his matches, while Taylor techs everyone. In such a scenario, wouldn’t you rank Taylor above Sadulaev in a p4p list?

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13 minutes ago, Katie said:

It’s not that crazy to throw out past results if you want to rank how people are currently performing.

Let’s say, next year, Sadulaev barely squeaks by all his matches, while Taylor techs everyone. In such a scenario, wouldn’t you rank Taylor above Sadulaev in a p4p list?

You are cherry picking times to do a comparison....can I pick out a 5 match stretch and state someone is the best P4P guy in the world? Bonne Rodriguez looked unreal at the 2018 World Championships, I am in no way putting him in my top 5 P4P rankings.

Would you rank a guy at a stacked weight who goes 18-2 lower than a guy at a watered down weight who's 20-0? 

To even put Saduluev's name in the same sentence as DT's is just egregious. 

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18 minutes ago, Katie said:

It’s not that crazy to throw out past results if you want to rank how people are currently performing.

Let’s say, next year, Sadulaev barely squeaks by all his matches, while Taylor techs everyone. In such a scenario, wouldn’t you rank Taylor above Sadulaev in a p4p list?

I think it is, especially in the context of P4P rankings.  These rankings are pretty obscure, you're comparing wrestlers across weights and evaluating which wrestlers are better on a weight-adjusted basis.  There isn't a lot of information for this purpose in the first place so why throw anything away?  I am pretty sure Flo's P4P rankings are more consistent with my view.  

Like now, I wouldn't argue at all if he was the UWW Freestyle Wrestler of the Year again but I'm not going to crown him with the P4P champ if Sadulaev also wins a world championship.  Sadulaev has been dominant at 86kg, 92kg, and 97kg -- which seems extremely useful for a discussion on P4P rankings -- but you would rather ignore that information. 

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Isn't DT wrestling the same weight class Sad did for a bit?

Common opponent results?

Anyone who says that a match between the two wouldn't be a fun match to watch is either stupid or very stupid.

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6 hours ago, MrDream said:

You are cherry picking times to do a comparison....can I pick out a 5 match stretch and state someone is the best P4P guy in the world? Bonne Rodriguez looked unreal at the 2018 World Championships, I am in no way putting him in my top 5 P4P rankings.

Would you rank a guy at a stacked weight who goes 18-2 lower than a guy at a watered down weight who's 20-0? 

To even put Saduluev's name in the same sentence as DT's is just egregious. 

I'm not proposing criteria for a p4p list. I'm simply saying there might be a rational reason to look only at recent results when creating such a list.

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22 minutes ago, Katie said:

I'm not proposing criteria for a p4p list. I'm simply saying there might be a rational reason to look only at recent results when creating such a list.

There absolutely is a reason to include recency bias.

Are you really going to include Taylor's matches from the Spanish Grand Prix from 5 years ago at 74kg in the same discussion as the man who won worlds last year hardly breaking a sweat?

Rank them as they are now. Now who they were. Recency bias absolutely should factor in.

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David Taylor has recently completed one of the best two year runs that any wrestler  has ever completed on the international scene despite the losses to cox.  He has teched and pinned his way through so many major tournaments chalk full of top Russian and other Soviet bloc Competitors I don’t know where to begin.  Won convincingly over Yazdani twice in an era where yazdani has completely massacred all other opposition,  including the guy who beat Jaden.  

When competing at the international level on a regular basis, it’s virtually impossible that any wrestler is going to put together back to back unbeaten seasons.  I don’t think even John Smith did- losing  to Randy Lewis  in 1988, reinoso in 1990, and both reinoso and John fisher in 1992.  

Further, Taylor is much more suited for the weight class under the current weigh in rules than he was under day before weigh ins in 2016-2017,  something that can’t be overlooked when a guy has moved up 26 pounds in weight. David Taylor at 189 with a same-day weigh in is a completely different animal than when his opponents could literally Rehydrate to 210 pounds.

Edited by Cradle1

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7 hours ago, Cradle1 said:

David Taylor has recently completed one of the best two year runs that any wrestler  has ever completed on the international scene despite the losses to cox.  He has teched and pinned his way through so many major tournaments chalk full of top Russian and other Soviet bloc Competitors I don’t know where to begin.  Won convincingly over Yazdani twice in an era where yazdani has completely massacred all other opposition,  including the guy who beat Jaden.  

When competing at the international level on a regular basis, it’s virtually impossible that any wrestler is going to put together back to back unbeaten seasons.  I don’t think even John Smith did- losing  to Randy Louis in 1988, reinoso in 1990, and both reinoso and John fisher in 1992.  

Further, Taylor is much more suited for the weight class under the current weigh in rules than he was under day before weigh ins in 2016-2017,  something that can’t be overlooked when a guy has moved up 26 pounds in weight. David Taylor at 189 with a same-day weigh in is a completely different animal than when his opponents could literally Rehydrate to 210 pounds.

So I guess I'm still confused.....

You stated Taylor completed "one of the best two year runs that any wrestler has ever completed"....I am guessing you mean domestic wrestlers (US against the World). If not, it's absurd. Saduleuv didn't lose for close to 4 years at one point. Also, over a 2 year span he has also dominated 2 OLYMPIC weights. Crushing souls at 86kg before answering the call and moving up to wrestle the supposed P4P King in Snyder, losing once and then avenging the loss in convincing fashion. I will assume your are solely discussing US wrestlers when describing "one of the best two year runs". 

I agree, Taylor is a different animal when at 86kg. Not taking anything away from his accomplishments, but hopefully we can look through an unbiased view and state the truth....86kg is a very weak weight. Besides, Yazdani (who has shown he can't control his weight on two day weigh-ins) the weight is very....very....weak. 

Hopefully Yazdani can figure out his weight issues, I always enjoy seeing a super competitive match between he and Taylor for about 4 minutes and then....well....we know the rest. 

9 hours ago, nhs67 said:

There absolutely is a reason to include recency bias.

Are you really going to include Taylor's matches from the Spanish Grand Prix from 5 years ago at 74kg in the same discussion as the man who won worlds last year hardly breaking a sweat?

Rank them as they are now. Now who they were. Recency bias absolutely should factor in.

Recency bias should factor in...if one of the two wrestlers you are comparing is declining while one is surging. 

I don't believe Saduluev is declining. He just went undefeated last year with a 65% tech/pin rate, all while PINNING the greatest American wrestler ever at that guy's natural weight.

Who was DT's best win against?? Yazdani?? A guy who has shown to be a totally different wrestler with 2 day weigh-ins....

Also remember, DT had his best season at 28....Saduleuv is 22/23....if you want a true comparison....lets wait until they both retire and compare record, quality victories, World Medals, and Olympic Medals. Deal? LOLOL

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No one gave Bo a chance against Gabe Dean and he won. Different athletes peak at different times. This is especially true once an athlete reaches his twenties. Just because Bo never won any high level earlier FS matches does not mean he cannot do it now. On paper, yes, Cox is the favorite. But that is why they wrestle the matches.

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On 4/29/2019 at 10:21 PM, Mphillips said:

Who, "two months ago" thought Moore would beat Nickal?  Anyone?   

" he is even money with a  world champ"   "Are you on dope?"

 

I sure didn't, but there were a few who thought Moore could win.

However, calling him even money with Cox doesn't make much sense.

I take Bo all day every day, against Cox and Snyder.

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1 hour ago, MrDream said:

. Besides, Yazdani (who has shown he can't control his weight on two day weigh-ins) the weight is very....very....weak.  

Hopefully Yazdani can figure out his weight issues, I always enjoy seeing a super competitive match between he and Taylor for about 4 minutes and then....well....we know the rest. 

 

Maybe I'm wrong here but isn't he's normally known for his pace and tempo?   Does he gas against anyone besides Taylor?   I don't think he has weight issues as much as DT issues, but could be wrong.  Yaz made his first world final at what 70kg? 

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42 minutes ago, Gantry said:

Maybe I'm wrong here but isn't he's normally known for his pace and tempo?   Does he gas against anyone besides Taylor?   I don't think he has weight issues as much as DT issues, but could be wrong.  Yaz made his first world final at what 70kg? 

I think that's a loaded question...

1). I think we know a lot of international wrestlers would have a tough time acclimating to multiple day weigh-ins. I can't think of any major international tournaments prior to the rule inception (2017 I believe) that made wrestlers weigh in multiple times. Most international wrestlers would weigh in and then hydrate to their normal weight, kinda common for them. 

2). I believe you are partially correct when you state "Yazdani has a DT problem". DT is a world class wrestler. Yazdani is too. They dominate the 86kg weight for a couple reasons; A). They are just superior wrestlers, and B). The division besides the two named is quite weak. So no, Yazdani doesn't have a problem against other guys, due to the two reasons listed above. 

3). I always believe Yazdani was well known for his superior technique and positioning. That's my perception of his matches. Sure, you could see where he wore down Geuduev at the 2016 Olympics, but my interpretation for the majority of matches with Yazdani is that he's a freak in just about every position.

4). In terms of his matches with DT (referencing the above point(s)), I find that a lot of Yazdani's problem with DT is conditioning. Yazdani/Taylor matches are ultra competitive for about 70% of the match then all of a sudden Yazdani just fades. It's not DT's wearing him out either, Yazdani has scored multiple times on DT, even pushing the pace against DT with pushouts (I believe World Cup in 2017, right before the DT pinned him). In 2018, Yazdani/DT wrestled in the opening round of the World Championships, Yazdani definitely has to keep in the back of his mind his weight for the rest of the tournament. I think that is a major issue for most international guys. 

I definitely agree that Yazdani and Taylor are evenly matched in terms of technique/position and overall wrestling prowess, but I give the major edge in conditioning to DT, I believe that two day weigh-ins are partially to blame, but he has had 2 full years to acclimate to it, if he doesn't make the matches more competitive/win this year, then yes, he does have a DT problem. 

Edited by MrDream
Spell check

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Yazdani:

  - Embarrassed in 70kg world finals 2015

  - Fluke win over Geduev who was losing his life in the middle of an Olympic gold medal match 

- "Won" an incredibly weak 86kg class in 2017 since Sadulaev got bored and decided to go up and beat Snyder 

- Embarrassed himself in 2018 worlds 

Am I seriously supposed to sit here and think Yazdani is a good win? 

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52 minutes ago, Shiraz123 said:

Yazdani:

  - Embarrassed in 70kg world finals 2015

  - Fluke win over Geduev who was losing his life in the middle of an Olympic gold medal match 

- "Won" an incredibly weak 86kg class in 2017 since Sadulaev got bored and decided to go up and beat Snyder 

- Embarrassed himself in 2018 worlds 

Am I seriously supposed to sit here and think Yazdani is a good win? 

Yes, you are supposed to sit there and think that.

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1 hour ago, Shiraz123 said:

Yazdani:

  - Embarrassed in 70kg world finals 2015

  - Fluke win over Geduev who was losing his life in the middle of an Olympic gold medal match 

- "Won" an incredibly weak 86kg class in 2017 since Sadulaev got bored and decided to go up and beat Snyder 

- Embarrassed himself in 2018 worlds 

Am I seriously supposed to sit here and think Yazdani is a good win? 

And comments like these are what's wrong with this board....

2015 World's - Yazdani goes Tech, Pin, Pin, beats James Green (who currently has 2 World Medals) 9-4 and then loses to Gadzi (Who currently is a 2x WC) 10-3. Yeah....real embarrassing. 

2016 Olympics - Yes, Geduev was controlling the match. Was it a fluke? Probably. 

2017 World's - It's comparable to what DT is wrestling in now once he beats Yazdani. Plus he gave up like 1-2 points that whole tournament, pretty impressive. I agree, though, 86kg was a very watered down after Yazdani and Cox.  

2018 World's - Loses to DT in the opening round like 11-6 and then Techs two guys on the backside before beating Kurugliev by a wider margin than what DT beat Kurugliev in the Semis. Again....real embarrassing. 

 

Looking at the past results, it looks as if Saduluev had a more impressive run at the World Championships in 2018 than DT did. 

Saduluev - Tech, Tech, Tech, Tech, and Pin

DT - Decision (11-6), Tech, Decision (8-0), Decision (7-5), and Tech. 

Wonder how he won UWW OW......Hmmmm......

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7 hours ago, MrDream said:

So I guess I'm still confused.....

You stated Taylor completed "one of the best two year runs that any wrestler has ever completed"....I am guessing you mean domestic wrestlers (US against the World). If not, it's absurd. Saduleuv didn't lose for close to 4 years at one point. Also, over a 2 year span he has also dominated 2 OLYMPIC weights. Crushing souls at 86kg before answering the call and moving up to wrestle the supposed P4P King in Snyder, losing once and then avenging the loss in convincing fashion. I will assume your are solely discussing US wrestlers when describing "one of the best two year runs". 

I agree, Taylor is a different animal when at 86kg. Not taking anything away from his accomplishments, but hopefully we can look through an unbiased view and state the truth....86kg is a very weak weight. Besides, Yazdani (who has shown he can't control his weight on two day weigh-ins) the weight is very....very....weak. 

Hopefully Yazdani can figure out his weight issues, I always enjoy seeing a super competitive match between he and Taylor for about 4 minutes and then....well....we know the rest. 

Recency bias should factor in...if one of the two wrestlers you are comparing is declining while one is surging. 

I don't believe Saduluev is declining. He just went undefeated last year with a 65% tech/pin rate, all while PINNING the greatest American wrestler ever at that guy's natural weight.

Who was DT's best win against?? Yazdani?? A guy who has shown to be a totally different wrestler with 2 day weigh-ins....

Also remember, DT had his best season at 28....Saduleuv is 22/23....if you want a true comparison....lets wait until they both retire and compare record, quality victories, World Medals, and Olympic Medals. Deal? LOLOL

Plus, how many wins did JB have before he lost?  It was about 4 years worth wasn't it?  Not that I think it connects at all, but if we are going with all the college stuff on the other guys he was undefeated his last 2 years if college also I think.  I think JB has like 6 losses since he started at the senior level. That was in like 8 years, and if I'm not mistaking 3 of them were at the Olympics and world's to guys who won the gold.  Taylor has a long way to go before he gets into the discussion with the greats.  I'm not saying he won't get there.  He may bery well do so. What I am saying though is that he needs at least 2 more gold's before he can even get into the discussion with the likes of JB, Snyder, Bruce, and Smith...let alone the international greats. 

The DT, and even more so BO talk is sounding a lot like "the next 4 time NCAA champ" talk every time a freshman wins the NCAA.  All it takes is a tweaked knee, an unexpected throw, a viral infection that makes you fatigued, the committee to change up the weights, etc.  There are so many different things that have to go right.  Many of them the wreatler doesn't always have control over. 

Edited by scramble

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