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New York to get rid of 99lb weight class

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11 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

I'm indifferent, but since I grew up with the construct that high school sports were for kids in grades 9-12. The Minnesota/New York concept of 7th graders wrestling varsity is foreign to me. I guess in its most basic level, it's a high school state tournament. Why are we having a battle over what's generally a middle school weight? Playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. 

 

11 hours ago, LJB said:

to be fair, some of those 7th graders are the same age as some of those 9th graders... its embarrassing to me how many freshmen wrestlers drive to practice...

 

10 hours ago, lurshy92 said:

 

Few points two the above;

How old were Mark Hall and Logan Steiber when they graduated high school?

Dake won his freshmen NCAA title when he was still 18, which is the age of most students in NY when they graduate, so don't bring into the discussion about what ages/ grade levels kids are supposed to compete varsity level (I turned 18 in April of my SR yr of HS). If anything its more impressive when underclassmen in NY win compared to other states, let alone if they are in middle school or not.

In addition, NY middle school sport competition is GARBAGE compared to other states. Having the 99 pound weight class allows the more advanced kids to be surrounded by varsity athletes, learning and getting better.

 

Damn somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed! Lighten up! First off Mark Hall and Logan Stieber have nothing to do with this thread so I'm not sure why you mention them. Yes we know Dake was only 18 years old when he won his first title. However, do you have any data to support your claim that most New York kids graduate at 18? Just as in the other 49 states, there is a certain percentage of parents who hold their kids back for whatever reason and while I don't agree with it it's just as rampant in New York as it is in every other state. New York is not holier than the rest. 

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On 5/4/2019 at 12:16 AM, ConnorsDad said:

 

 

Damn somebody got up on the wrong side of the bed! Lighten up! First off Mark Hall and Logan Stieber have nothing to do with this thread so I'm not sure why you mention them. Yes we know Dake was only 18 years old when he won his first title. However, do you have any data to support your claim that most New York kids graduate at 18? Just as in the other 49 states, there is a certain percentage of parents who hold their kids back for whatever reason and while I don't agree with it it's just as rampant in New York as it is in every other state. New York is not holier than the rest. 

Dake was 18 when he graduated high school and had just turned 19 when he won his first NCAA title. He was born February 25, 1991, so thus in March of 2010 he was 19 years old.

And the data is out there, most kids graduate high school at 18 years old. That's pretty common in the United States.

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4 hours ago, BobDole said:

Dake was 18 when he graduated high school and had just turned 19 when he won his first NCAA title. He was born February 25, 1991, so thus in March of 2010 he was 19 years old.

And the data is out there, most kids graduate high school at 18 years old. That's pretty common in the United States.

Yeah I didn't word it the best. The previous poster basically said that in New York everybody graduates at the correct age where as all of the 20 year old high schoolers come from other states. Basically I was laughing at that assumption but I guess I didn't word it right. Yes I realize still more kids graduate at 18 than any other ages but it's just ridiculous to think that 1 state has no crazy parents. 

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22 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Yeah I didn't word it the best. The previous poster basically said that in New York everybody graduates at the correct age where as all of the 20 year old high schoolers come from other states. Basically I was laughing at that assumption but I guess I didn't word it right. Yes I realize still more kids graduate at 18 than any other ages but it's just ridiculous to think that 1 state has no crazy parents. 

Most New Yorkers are sane and very reasonable people.

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On ‎5‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 12:25 PM, JasonBryant said:

I'm indifferent, but since I grew up with the construct that high school sports were for kids in grades 9-12. The Minnesota/New York concept of 7th graders wrestling varsity is foreign to me. I guess in its most basic level, it's a high school state tournament. Why are we having a battle over what's generally a middle school weight? Playing devil's advocate for the sake of discussion. 

There are a few points that should probably be pointed out here.

First, while most people call it the NYSPHSAA (New York State Public High School Athletic Association) tournament, they are actually talking about the Federation tournament.  The NYSPHAA is an association for member schools which participate through the "sections." 

The PSAL (NYC Public Schools), CHSAA (Catholic schools), and AIS (Independent schools) are not a part of the NYSPHAA.  In some sports there are federation championships where the champions from the NYPHSAA, CHSAA, PSAL, and AIS come together for a tournament to crown the State Federation Champion.  The most popular federation championship is in basketball as the NYC publics and Catholics are often national powers.  http://nysfederationtournament.com/brackets/

In wrestling, there are actually two tournaments that are held at once through a hybrid tournament with each tournament having two divisions.  The two divisions (large school and small school) NYSPHSAA tournament and a NYS Federation tournament also with two divisions which are held at the exact same time.  NYSPHSAA place winners are given two awards on the podium--one for their placement in the Federation tournament and one for their placement in the NYSPHSAA tournament.  When there is a place winner from the PSAL, CHSAA, or AIS, there are two sets of podium photos taken.  One with everyone who competed in the tournament and one with only those who are members of the NYSPHSAA (with everyone who placed behind the Federation athlete moving up the podium).  If the champion is from the CHSAA, for instance, and the runner-up is from the NYSPHAA, the NYSPHSAA athlete will have his picture taken in the second place spot and in the champion spot, he will actually be the Federation runner-up and the NYSPHSAA champion. 

Though when results are posted, everyone only looks at the federation results, despite the event always being referred to as the NYSPHSAA Intersectional championship.

This is important because the majority of the NYSPHSAA schools are actually small rural schools. The median BEDS enrollment figure is just over 300 for NYSPHSAA members.  The BEDS figure is used for classifying schools and is calculated by taking the enrollment from grades 9-11 for the previous year.  So, half of all schools graduate less than 100 students.

It is common for a school to have middle and high school students in the same building and even fairly common for K-12 to be in the same building. 

This is part of the reason for the additional weight class and the inclusion of middle school athletes at the high school level. 

There are simply many schools where JV or Modified (middle school) programs are not viable on their own.  This isn't just for wrestling but in many other sports where it is difficult to field different level programs.  As a result, many of these programs are blended together.  In other sports you don't really notice too much.  But in wrestling where there are weight classes that further divide athletes and prevent them from competing against each other it can be much more noticeable.  So the lower weight class was a way to help accommodate this. 

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New York going to 2 divisions was a complete travesty pushed by insecure coaches who wanted to finally get a state champ.  Terrible idea.  Getting rid of 99 lbs is also another dumb idea and will only hurt the sport and smaller kids in High (and Jr.) School. Sad times for NY wrestling. [except for Yanni of course] ;-)

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20 minutes ago, leshismore said:

New York going to 2 divisions was a complete travesty pushed by insecure coaches who wanted to finally get a state champ.  Terrible idea.  Getting rid of 99 lbs is also another dumb idea and will only hurt the sport and smaller kids in High (and Jr.) School. Sad times for NY wrestling. [except for Yanni of course] ;-)

I agree with your first point. We should go back to 1 division and expand our placements to 7/8. Our modified program in NYS is a joke and I think, thought a small step, getting rid of 99lbs is a start to fixing the problem. Next step is not allowing 7th and 8th graders compete on varsity, at least start with 7th graders. If we put money and time into fixing the program and implementing a modified state tournament we'd be a national power as a state once again.

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36 minutes ago, Ragu said:

I agree with your first point. We should go back to 1 division and expand our placements to 7/8. Our modified program in NYS is a joke and I think, thought a small step, getting rid of 99lbs is a start to fixing the problem. Next step is not allowing 7th and 8th graders compete on varsity, at least start with 7th graders. If we put money and time into fixing the program and implementing a modified state tournament we'd be a national power as a state once again.

Wow just going back to single class will really magically fix New York's wrestling?

Please enlighten me on how single class wrestling will help New York go back to the promised land?

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21 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Wow just going back to single class will really magically fix New York's wrestling?

Please enlighten me on how single class wrestling will help New York go back to the promised land?

Bob... because it would make LI Marty happy :-)  That's how buster -- ha ha

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1 hour ago, leshismore said:

New York going to 2 divisions was a complete travesty pushed by insecure coaches who wanted to finally get a state champ.  Terrible idea.  Getting rid of 99 lbs is also another dumb idea and will only hurt the sport and smaller kids in High (and Jr.) School. Sad times for NY wrestling. [except for Yanni of course] ;-)

I actually think two divisions has lead to more of an investment into wrestling. 

Of course, the split in two classes also came with the addition of wild cards and the larger field may have accomplished the same thing.

There has been a proposal for a federation championship to bring D1, D2, CHSAA, AIS, and PSAL champions together for an Federation championship following the divisional championships (which would no longer include the associations not in the NYSPHSAA).  

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42 minutes ago, BobDole said:

Wow just going back to single class will really magically fix New York's wrestling?

Please enlighten me on how single class wrestling will help New York go back to the promised land?

I didn't say 1 division would fix it, I said fixing our modified system would

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Just now, Ragu said:

I didn't say 1 division would fix it, I said fixing our modified system would

The modified system isn't a problem.

I am a big fan of the Program 2 structure where events match athletes rather than using weight classes. 

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1 hour ago, Pinnum said:

The modified system isn't a problem.

I am a big fan of the Program 2 structure where events match athletes rather than using weight classes. 

Are you joking? It is THE problem with NY wrestling

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Just be happy you're not running the old weight classes still.

Michigan is still running 103, 112, 119, etc.  It drives me nuts that they won't follow the herd.

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18 hours ago, Pinnum said:

How is it a problem?

 

We don't have regulations. We have no assigned weight classes, no post season tournament, no regulated duals, nothing. It's a mess and we need to govern it better if at all. Make set weight classes, have a state tournament, make middle schoolers compete in modified when they're in middle school and watch the quality of wrestling increase and numbers increase with it.

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1 hour ago, Ragu said:

We don't have regulations. We have no assigned weight classes, no post season tournament, no regulated duals, nothing. It's a mess and we need to govern it better if at all. Make set weight classes, have a state tournament, make middle schoolers compete in modified when they're in middle school and watch the quality of wrestling increase and numbers increase with it.

No assigned weight classes allows for athletes to be best matched so that they can wrestle each other based on ability.  This makes competition time more efficient.  It is a good thing.

But schools are free to have weight classes if they want.  There are middle school weight classes if schools choose to operate under "Program 1" guidelines.

There is no sport that has a modified state tournament.  Playoffs are not something that happens in any sport at the middle school level in NY.  And you know what, New York is a hotbed of talent in many sports and does just fine.

There is no reason to think that New York middle school aged athletes lack for competition.  Most athletes wrestle in outside events be it MAWA, NYWay, or USAWrestling events.  And those athletes wrestling varsity are getting challenged by the highest level they can get exposed to without having to travel for matches.

Middle school wrestling is not a problem.  Sure, there would be more high level kids wrestling modified events if they couldn't wrestle in varsity events.  But that would likely make high school dual meets less viable and lead to even more forfeits.  The fact that there aren't weight classes for modified is great because it eliminates forfeits that happen in dual meets.  The level is literally decided to get kids matches against other kids who are like them.

 

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Just curious, and people in upstate sections could answer this question (I grew up on Long Island, although was never involved in wrestling in Section VIII, and went to a prep school for HS), but do all sections in the state allow two wrestlers per weight into their section qualifying tournaments?

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13 hours ago, SetonHallPirate said:

Just curious, and people in upstate sections could answer this question (I grew up on Long Island, although was never involved in wrestling in Section VIII, and went to a prep school for HS), but do all sections in the state allow two wrestlers per weight into their section qualifying tournaments?

Yes

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On 5/7/2019 at 7:27 PM, nhs67 said:

Just be happy you're not running the old weight classes still.

Michigan is still running 103, 112, 119, etc.  It drives me nuts that they won't follow the herd.

Montana has different weight classes than everybody. Montana uses 103, 113, 120, 126, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 182, 205, and 285.  

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