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Eagle26

Yianni final scoring sequence

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Sorry if this has been discussed elsewhere but I rewatched the end of the match and am having a hard time seeing how it ended up 10-8? It was 8-4 before all of this happened then there was an iffy situation where Yianni hipped over from Bajrang’s crotch lock. It looked to me like Yianni did not expose and the ref indicated 2 for red (Yianni). The chairman only put up a white paddle which makes no sense. I believe that should’ve been 2-0 Yianni. Next move looked like Bajrang’s, but ref calls 2 for Yianni. The chairman puts up 2 blue and 1 red which I agree with. Should be 11-6. I could see a case for 10-8 if they called both moves 2 blue exposure, 1 red reversal. However you can clearly see in the video that 2 of the three officials did not offer 2-1 on the first move

Edited by Eagle26

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I just rewatched the match again.  I don't think the final sequence was the only portion of the match with questionable calls.  It would be nice if someone who has a little more freestyle scoring chops than your average joe could watch it and score what they think.  I think Yianni got gifted a point here and there....Could be wrong though.

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the final should have been either 11-8 or 9-8 depending on whether one of the exposures by yanni at the end was white paddled or not... i could see it either way...

free scoring is not complicated... i know plenty of 10 year olds that keep up with it just fine...

but, this forum has proven many times over what average really means...

 

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1 minute ago, Dr. Novak said:

Not surprising you know a bunch of 10 year olds.

not being able to get a one sentence grade school put down out without an edit proves my original point...

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17 hours ago, LJB said:

the final should have been either 11-8 or 9-8 depending on whether one of the exposures by yanni at the end was white paddled or not... i could see it either way...

free scoring is not complicated... i know plenty of 10 year olds that keep up with it just fine...

but, this forum has proven many times over what average really means...

 

Free scoring is not complicated.  However, when you have scrambles that score a lot of points and a judgment call needs to be made from two different refs about who initiated it, it can be hard to keep up with who scored what in real time. It is interesting you claim simplicity, but also list that the score could have been 11-8 or 9-8. I don't know too many 10 year olds that could clearly explain to me the nuance in all the different possibilities.

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2 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Free scoring is not complicated.  However, when you have scrambles that score a lot of points and a judgment call needs to be made from two different refs about who initiated it, it can be hard to keep up with who scored what in real time. It is interesting you claim simplicity, but also list that the score could have been 11-8 or 9-8. I don't know too many 10 year olds that could clearly explain to me the nuance in all the different possibilities.

I would have to go back and actually watch the match to comment further, but, you should give more credit to our youth wrestlers... 

with 3 man mechanics, I rarely see unjustified calls...

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

I would have to go back and actually watch the match to comment further, but, you should give more credit to our youth wrestlers... 

with 3 man mechanics, I rarely see unjustified calls...

I don't really mean to take anything away from our youth kids. I was just making the point that it can be complicated for anyone. I also don't think "unjustified" is the right word. Even outside of this match, any time where a ref needs to determine intent i.e. who initiated the move, it can get really hazy real fast in these scrambles.

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I saw Ben Askren one time motion to the ref that he was about to initiate a move and then went to his back and exposed the other guy.  It could have gone either way except Askren told the ref it was his move before he did it.   That was really quite funny I thought.

mspart

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15 minutes ago, russelscout said:

I don't really mean to take anything away from our youth kids. I was just making the point that it can be complicated for anyone. I also don't think "unjustified" is the right word. Even outside of this match, any time where a ref needs to determine intent i.e. who initiated the move, it can get really hazy real fast in these scrambles.

again, with 3 man mechanics i rarely see the wrong call made...

the vast majority of "complaints" about free and greco scoring is typically born of ignorance about the scoring system itself... which would be easily solved by just a little effort to learn it...

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18 hours ago, LJB said:

the final should have been either 11-8 or 9-8 depending on whether one of the exposures by yanni at the end was white paddled or not... i could see it either way...

free scoring is not complicated... i know plenty of 10 year olds that keep up with it just fine...

but, this forum has proven many times over what average really means...

 

I wouldn’t say it’s complicated either, but it is subjective and can be confusing for even experienced freestyle fans. I am very experienced as a competitor, coach, and fan and I can see several scoring possibilities based on your interpretation of initiation. Even you offered two different scores. I can see the 11-8 possibility but I’m not sure on how you 9-8? Here’s my breakdown starting with about 40 seconds left and assuming 8-4 is correct at this point... first scramble could be 2-0 red (that would be my call), 2-1 blue, or 2-2. Last scramble should be 2-1 blue in my opinion. That gives scoring possibilities of 11-6, 10-8, or 11-8. Also I like having three officials and they usually get it right, but we’ve all seen them get it wrong plenty of times

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1 minute ago, Eagle26 said:

I wouldn’t say it’s complicated either, but it is subjective and can be confusing for even experienced freestyle fans. I am very experienced as a competitor, coach, and fan and I can see several scoring possibilities based on your interpretation of initiation. Even you offered two different scores. I can see the 11-8 possibility but I’m not sure on how you 9-8? Here’s my breakdown starting with about 40 seconds left and assuming 8-4 is correct at this point... first scramble could be 2-0 red (that would be my call), 2-1 blue, or 2-2. Last scramble should be 2-1 blue in my opinion. That gives scoring possibilities of 11-6, 10-8, or 11-8. Also I like having three officials and they usually get it right, but we’ve all seen them get it wrong plenty of times

i offered two different scores because that was what i thought while viewing it... again, i would have to actually go back and watch it again to really say...

the other thing at play here is that i don't 100% trust the score board either... that can be operator error as well... there is no telling what the chairman actually had on his official score sheet...

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33 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

I wouldn’t say it’s complicated either, but it is subjective and can be confusing for even experienced freestyle fans. I am very experienced as a competitor, coach, and fan and I can see several scoring possibilities based on your interpretation of initiation. Even you offered two different scores. I can see the 11-8 possibility but I’m not sure on how you 9-8? Here’s my breakdown starting with about 40 seconds left and assuming 8-4 is correct at this point... first scramble could be 2-0 red (that would be my call), 2-1 blue, or 2-2. Last scramble should be 2-1 blue in my opinion. That gives scoring possibilities of 11-6, 10-8, or 11-8. Also I like having three officials and they usually get it right, but we’ve all seen them get it wrong plenty of times

fine... i went back and watched it...

first off, there can't be a 2-2 scenario in the first scramble... it's not possible in the rule set... edited to add this statement is incorrect as well... had yanni caught him on his back it could have been 2... that may have been what the ref saw from his position...

so, with that being said, i have it scored 9-8 yanni... bajrang crotch lifts for 2... yanni never reverses... bajrang chest wraps for 2 then yanni reverses for 1...

the ref put up 2-2 on the initial scramble which could have just been him initially raising the incorrect hand... it was white paddled by the judge... no view of the chairman... but, whoever is running the scoreboard itself is going off the reservation at this point... 

the other thing i will comment on is do not recognize the refs BTS was using... i am at or viewing all sorts of USA events from locals, to regionals, national duals, UWW qualifiers and i have never seen these guys that were used... that is not to say they are not good/experienced/licensed... just that i do not recognize them, so, i am not going to say their quality either...

Edited by LJB

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19 minutes ago, Dr. Novak said:

You're a cute little guy but a tad angry.

ugh... 

you are not clever... or knowledgeable... you offer no quality... and if you think your internet parlor tricks have any effect on me other then an eye roll you are sorely mistaken...

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

fine... i went back and watched it...

first off, there can't be a 2-2 scenario in the first scramble... it's not possible in the rule set... edited to add this statement is incorrect as well... had yanni caught him on his back it could have been 2... that may have been what the ref saw from his position...

so, with that being said, i have it scored 9-8 yanni... bajrang crotch lifts for 2... yanni never reverses... bajrang chest wraps for 2 then yanni reverses for 1...

the ref put up 2-2 on the initial scramble which could have just been him initially raising the incorrect hand... it was white paddled by the judge... no view of the chairman... but, whoever is running the scoreboard itself is going off the reservation at this point... 

the other thing i will comment on is do not recognize the refs BTS was using... i am at or viewing all sorts of USA events from locals, to regionals, national duals, UWW qualifiers and i have never seen these guys that were used... that is not to say they are not good/experienced/licensed... just that i do not recognize them, so, i am not going to say their quality either...

Looked again too and you are right that Yianni never reversed in the first sequence, so the main debate is who initiated the first move. I thought Yianni hipped over and maybe didn’t even expose, but it’s very close and you can make a case for 2-0 blue. That being said, it begs my original question... how the heck does it end up 10-8?? I’d be good with 9-8 or 11-6... even if they go 2-2 on the first exchange, that’s 11-8? If freestyle geniuses like you and I can’t figure it out after watching the replay multiple times, somebody must’ve messed up :-) 

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These guys are so flexible, funky, and innovative today that scoring is not always clear-cut.  Did blue initiate the move?  Did red secure an exposure as blue attacked?  I am coaching 30 very good youth wrestlers and it's not like the old days because these young guys are so much more athletic today.  Not complaining--I love how they are moving the sport to new levels.  Just hard for the rules to keep up with the advancements in technique (as witnessed by UWW/FILA changing the rules every damn year).

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31 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

Looked again too and you are right that Yianni never reversed in the first sequence, so the main debate is who initiated the first move. I thought Yianni hipped over and maybe didn’t even expose, but it’s very close and you can make a case for 2-0 blue. That being said, it begs my original question... how the heck does it end up 10-8?? I’d be good with 9-8 or 11-6... even if they go 2-2 on the first exchange, that’s 11-8? If freestyle geniuses like you and I can’t figure it out after watching the replay multiple times, somebody must’ve messed up :-) 

i think it is a clear exposure, but, it never should have happened in the first place...  if yanni lets go of the leg, then that crotch lift goes nowhere... it was one of several clear examples of yanni's free being a little sloppy, which, is understandable but still makes me shake my head knowing how folk hinders our development as a country...

and i still think that whoever was pushing buttons on the computer just screwed up... 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

i think it is a clear exposure, but, it never should have happened in the first place...  if yanni lets go of the leg, then that crotch lift goes nowhere... it was one of several clear examples of yanni's free being a little sloppy, which, is understandable but still makes me shake my head knowing how folk hinders our development as a country...

and i still think that whoever was pushing buttons on the computer just screwed up... 

Having followed my son all over the country, watched 100 zillion matches on Flo & Track, scored myself at Fargo and officiated (probably not worth a ****), I wholeheartedly agree that it's way more LIKELY to be scoreboard operator error than officiating. Both happen though. (That being said I also have never seen those officials in my life. Doesn't mean they aren't around I've just never seen them at Western Regionals, US Opens, Fargo or anything.) Many times the scoreboard operator clicks on the wrong color or gives too many points and has to go back all the while more scoring is happening during that time and they get way out of whack. They are both tough jobs and made even more so by how quickly you can score in freestyle and greco

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4 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Having followed my son all over the country, watched 100 zillion matches on Flo & Track, scored myself at Fargo and officiated (probably not worth a ****), I wholeheartedly agree that it's way more LIKELY to be scoreboard operator error than officiating. Both happen though. (That being said I also have never seen those officials in my life. Doesn't mean they aren't around I've just never seen them at Western Regionals, US Opens, Fargo or anything.) Many times the scoreboard operator clicks on the wrong color or gives too many points and has to go back all the while more scoring is happening during that time and they get way out of whack. They are both tough jobs and made even more so by how quickly you can score in freestyle and greco

clearly, we park our cars in the same garage...

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3 minutes ago, LJB said:

clearly, we park our cars in the same garage...

Hey my garage fits only one car. And once I found a garage that my car would fit into, I prefer it to remain only for my use LOL. Yes we do.

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2 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Hey my garage fits only one car. And once I found a garage that my car would fit into, I prefer it to remain only for my use LOL. Yes we do.

yeah... i thought that too... but, there were all sorts of vehicles parking in my garage while i was away... so, now i send a big fat check every month to not even have a garage anymore...

aint life grand?

#notbitter 

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