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Yianni final scoring sequence

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7 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

The crotch lift isn’t a JV move. It’s a legit move and it doesn’t just work below age 14. The fact that only one was executed last year at worlds does not in any way make the move a joke. How many arm spins or over/under throws were hit at worlds last year? I actually don’t know the answer but it can’t be many. Doesn’t make the moves JV. 

One executed in 90ish matches... it is considered a "basic" move, unlike the throws you mentioned which have always been rare...

If it worked at a high level, it would score more often.

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9 minutes ago, LJB said:

anyone who is well versed in freestyle wrestling should never get crotch lifted... ever... 

let go of the leg... it really is that easy...

 

classic "fan thinks professional sports are easy" take. Crotch lifts are incredibly effective, even if they don't always score exposure, because they force the attacking wrestler to defend instead of finishing his attack. It's also not as easy as "let go of the leg" Simply letting go of the leg would allow your opponent to score a takedown which is worth the same as an exposure. The difficulty comes from not letting go of the leg without being exposed.

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4 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

classic "fan thinks professional sports are easy" take. Crotch lifts are incredibly effective, even if they don't always score exposure, because they force the attacking wrestler to defend instead of finishing his attack. It's also not as easy as "let go of the leg" Simply letting go of the leg would allow your opponent to score a takedown which is worth the same as an exposure. The difficulty comes from not letting go of the leg without being exposed.

ugh...

let go of the leg... there is NO fulcrum to expose... if they bail on the crotch lift and try to get behind you just grab the leg again... the crotch lift is a purely defensive move and as such is very effective... but, if you get exposed from it that is on you... we see it in this country only because our kids are taught how not to wrestle in folk... by "coaches" who don't understand free any better... this thread has proven it...

and don't get me started on arm spins... it is the calling card of junk greco in this country...

Edited by LJB

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5 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

classic "fan thinks professional sports are easy" take. Crotch lifts are incredibly effective, even if they don't always score exposure, because they force the attacking wrestler to defend instead of finishing his attack. It's also not as easy as "let go of the leg" Simply letting go of the leg would allow your opponent to score a takedown which is worth the same as an exposure. The difficulty comes from not letting go of the leg without being exposed.

I agree to a point here.  Not great in scoring, but can be helpful in preventing a score... however, YD was scored on...

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

ugh...

let go of the leg... there is NO fulcrum to expose... if they bail on the crotch lift and try to get behind you just grab the leg again... the crotch lift is a purely defensive move and as such is very effective... but, if you get exposed from it that is on you... we see it in this country only because our kids are taught how not to wrestle in folk... by "coaches" who don't understand free any better... this thread has proven it...

and don't get me started on arm spins... it is the calling card of junk greco in this country...

Ah, my bad. I didn't realize you could simply regrab the leg of an elite wrestler if he bails on the crotch lock. So simple. 

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Just now, qc8223 said:

Ah, my bad. I didn't realize you could simply regrab the leg of an elite wrestler if he bails on the crotch lock. So simple. 

why wouldn't it be?

the leg is in between your arms already...

this isn't rocket science here... it is basic technique... some of you just don't know it... instead of getting salty, try learning...

 

 

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1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

I agree to a point here.  Not great in scoring, but can be helpful in preventing a score... however, YD was scored on...

Yianni got scored on because Bajrang sat the corner and beat his shoulder. In attempting to prevent the takedown, Yianni tried to cut to a double and his hips became elevated allowing Bajrang to take him through. He might have been able to flatten out and hang on, but with Bajrang beating his shoulder, he was in real trouble even if he did that. The work was not done by the crotch lift, but by the really nice job Bajrang did by sitting the corner and beating the shoulder.

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he lets go off that leg and he is never in danger of being exposed...

and don't worry, i have had this argument with others until they actually tried and realizes it works... 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

why wouldn't it be?

the leg is in between your arms already...

this isn't rocket science here... it is basic technique... some of you just don't know it... instead of getting salty, try learning...

 

 

If you're talking about posting the inside arm straight out as "letting go of the leg," then I agree with you that that is the proper technique. But it's also essential to use your outside hand to stay on the ankle, which isn't "letting go of the leg." Inside arm posts in between opponents legs, outside hand to the ankle keeping your opponent from easily getting his hips up, and your hips down to prevent the lift. If you don't have the ankle you might be able to regrab the leg when your opponent hips up, but you'll be incredibly extended and vulnerable at that point.

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

he lets go off that leg and he is never in danger of being exposed...

and don't worry, i have had this argument with others until they actually tried and realizes it works... 

If you watch the video, Yianni did post his arm out, but Bajrang beat his shoulder which made defending the crotch lift secondary to defending against Bajrang getting the corner. Bajrang was only able to hit the lift when Yianni adjusted to prevent the takedown. It was good chain wrestling by Bajrang. Yianni was in big trouble as soon as his shoulder was beaten and did a good job of trying to salvage the position. 

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1 minute ago, LJB said:

or, just let go off the leg completely and they have no fulcrum to bring you over for exposure...

just go try it and get back to me...

You're saying let go of the leg with both arms?

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1 minute ago, qc8223 said:

You're saying let go of the leg with both arms?

absolutely...

yanni gets brought over because he still has a hold of that ankle... if he lets go of it, he will not be brought over for exposure... the lifts fails... if bajrang attempts anything else, it is easily grabbed again to stall out the action for a whistle...

yanni's offense was done when he wasn't able to finish cleanly... but absolutely no reason to give up exposure... that was on him... it is poor coaching if he doesn't know that... or it could just easily be muscle memory from wasting time wrestling folk...

either way... it bothers me...

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7 minutes ago, LJB said:

absolutely...

yanni gets brought over because he still has a hold of that ankle... if he lets go of it, he will not be brought over for exposure... the lifts fails... if bajrang attempts anything else, it is easily grabbed again to stall out the action for a whistle...

yanni's offense was done when he wasn't able to finish cleanly... but absolutely no reason to give up exposure... that was on him... it is poor coaching if he doesn't know that... or it could just easily be muscle memory from wasting time wrestling folk...

either way... it bothers me...

I really don't think that's true, and if he lets go of the ankle there he gives up an easy 2 to Bajrang in that situation anyway with a takedown. You'd have an argument if takedowns were worth 1 still, but if he bellies down and lets go of the leg as you suggest, he gives up 2 anyway. Do foreign wrestlers completely let go of the leg to defend the crotch lift? Do you have specific examples of it. I think you are greatly overestimating how easy it would be to regrab the leg against an elite guy. Maybe easily done at a local high school freestyle opponent, but not at the world level.

This reminds me of being at NCAAs and the casual fan behind me couldn't believe "nobody was trying to run chicken wings" because that always worked for him in high school.

Edited by qc8223

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2 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

I really don't think that's true, and if he lets go of the ankle there he gives up an easy 2 to Bajrang in that situation anyway with a takedown. You'd have an argument if takedowns were worth 1 still, but if he bellies down and lets go of the leg as you suggest, he gives up 2 anyway. Do foreign wrestlers completely let go of the leg to defend the crotch lift? Do you have specific examples of it. I think you are greatly overestimating how easy it would be to regrab the leg against an elite guy. Maybe easily done at a local high school freestyle opponent, but not at the world level.

This reminds me of being at NCAAs and the casual fan behind me couldn't believe "nobody was trying to run chicken wings" because that always worked for him in high school.

you can think it's not true all you want... and i realize it is so simple that it seems kinda silly... i have had this same argument with everyone (everyone being actual wrestlers) until they just did it and it dawns on them how easy it was... and the leg is still in between your arms... you can even drape one of your arms over it still... just let go of it and there is absolutely no fulcrum to bring you over with... 

when i was first shown it i had a similar reaction , but, never having wrestled i don't have any preconceived notion of what works or not... i made the same comment about letting go off the leg... dude just grabbed it again... i was like, duh... it really is the simplest thing in the world to defend, which, is why you you don't see them scored on the senior level...

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22 minutes ago, LJB said:

you can think it's not true all you want... and i realize it is so simple that it seems kinda silly... i have had this same argument with everyone (everyone being actual wrestlers) until they just did it and it dawns on them how easy it was... and the leg is still in between your arms... you can even drape one of your arms over it still... just let go of it and there is absolutely no fulcrum to bring you over with... 

when i was first shown it i had a similar reaction , but, never having wrestled i don't have any preconceived notion of what works or not... i made the same comment about letting go off the leg... dude just grabbed it again... i was like, duh... it really is the simplest thing in the world to defend, which, is why you you don't see them scored on the senior level...

Like I said, this could maybe work at the lower levels, but not at the world level, and definitely not in the specific position Yianni was in. Bajrang beat his shoulder. At that point, he can't just let go of the leg without giving up the takedown.

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I’m glad we have someone of LJB’s pedigree to school us on what is acceptable and what is not at the senior world level. 

I’m really glad I learned the crotch lift is a JV technique that only works under age 14. Maybe someone should tell Kyle Dake that he should never attempt the move again. It only works against scrubs like David Taylor, Zahid Valencia, and 14 year olds. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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1 hour ago, AHamilton said:

One executed in 90ish matches... it is considered a "basic" move, unlike the throws you mentioned which have always been rare...

If it worked at a high level, it would score more often.

I don’t know if that stat is true, but even if it is, nobody claimed the crotch lift was the end all be all counter. Also, the arm spin is not some rare advanced move. There are variations of it that are more advanced but the simple underarm spin variation is like a headlock. Upper body 101.

How many fireman’s carries did we see at the worlds last year? Probably not that many. Tell Sadulaev or Kenny Monday they don’t work at the highest level as is “conventional wisdom”. 

The crotch lift is a sound technique that does work at the highest level. When locked in properly, it is such a high percentage move that as QC pointed out, most just give up position rather than risk getting ragdolled. I didn’t see anyone claim it is frequently seen. I did see one poster claim it only works up to age 14, which is what I objected to. 

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2 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

I don’t know if that stat is true, but even if it is, nobody claimed the crotch lift was the end all be all counter. Also, the arm spin is not some rare advanced move. There are variations of it that are more advanced but the simple underarm spin variation is like a headlock. Upper body 101.

How many fireman’s carries did we see at the worlds last year? Probably not that many. Tell Sadulaev or Kenny Monday they don’t work at the highest level as is “conventional wisdom”. 

The crotch lift is a sound technique that does work at the highest level. When locked in properly, it is such a high percentage move that as QC pointed out, most just give up position rather than risk getting ragdolled. I didn’t see anyone claim it is frequently seen. I did see one poster claim it only works up to age 14, which is what I objected to. 

2018 Worlds from quarters on (and bronze matches) 15 points with firemans, as opposed to 150 pts with doubles.

Edited by AHamilton

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3 hours ago, LJB said:

or, just let go off the leg completely and they have no fulcrum to bring you over for exposure...

just go try it and get back to me...

You can crotch lift someone that isn't holding onto your leg.  Back when par terre was a thing you used to see it all the time not so much at the world championships but in age level freestyle tournaments from that position.  The point is from par terre the bottom man won't be holding the leg and he will still get crotch lifted. 

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8 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

You can crotch lift someone that isn't holding onto your leg.  Back when par terre was a thing you used to see it all the time not so much at the world championships but in age level freestyle tournaments from that position.  The point is from par terre the bottom man won't be holding the leg and he will still get crotch lifted. 

Show an example...

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