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hammerlockthree

Who else wishes they had twice as long in Par Terre?

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I've noticed if they actually lock something up, whether it be a lace or a gut they are actually trying to complete, the ref gives then a little extra time.

But 75% of the wrestlers dont even make an effort.

They just get a takedown place hands on the middle of the opponents back and look up at the ref.

I think bumping it to 30seconds and actually enforcing 30seconds doesnt promote action, and obviously slows down the match.

Would be so frustating for your wrestler to get taken down with 40 seconds left, match tied, but he is behind on criteria and he gets the restart with 10 left....

Sure he could escape but in freestyle standing up is death.

As it's currently called if top wrestler isnt working, ref restarts them ~10sec or less, later and we get those great action finishes.

 

I'm running long here, but a hard 30sec count would be a step back in my book.

 

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(1) Place a maximum on the number of times you can turn a guy with a leg lace or gut.  Two times seems sufficient. 

Personally, I can't stand matches where a guy gets a takedown and immediately turns his opponent four times to end the match.

(2) Allow the guy on bottom to fight back more and resist (especially if you want to extend the time a top guy has to work).  I've never understood why they compel the bottom wrestler to "open up" so much and don't allow him to hand fight the position more extensively.  It seems counter to the very nature of the sport. 

 

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11 hours ago, dmm53 said:

(1) Place a maximum on the number of times you can turn a guy with a leg lace or gut.  Two times seems sufficient. 

Personally, I can't stand matches where a guy gets a takedown and immediately turns his opponent four times to end the match.

(2) Allow the guy on bottom to fight back more and resist (especially if you want to extend the time a top guy has to work).  I've never understood why they compel the bottom wrestler to "open up" so much and don't allow him to hand fight the position more extensively.  It seems counter to the very nature of the sport. 

 

I like both thoughts, but for (1) why not make it just one time and require  a release.  This was part of the rules for some part of the  80s-90s.

 

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I have to point out that those claiming people aren't making an effort on top are ignoring that they aren't starting because they don't have time to finish. If they were guaranteed 20, the technical complexity of what they had time to hit would go up exponentially. We'd a hundred techniques pretty much lost to time. 

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If one gives the top wrestler longer to work and/or allows an unlimited number of turns in any one situation, then it is reasonable to raise the point difference for a tech (technical superiority) to at least 15 (as it is in folkstyle).

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Two things would improve the matches for me and one big one for tournaments.

First, twice as long as suggested with the second being actual turns for control towards a pin - no more of this "roll me over" crap. Yes, it is not easy but the leg lace of interminable rollovers is asinine. Turn to make progress towards a PIN.

Then, with tournaments - make them full Double Elimination so even the weakest know they will get two matches. Some travel thousands of miles for "one and done".

In addition I would allow two entries per weight(if the weight is qualified) for each nation - with the stipulation they do not meet in the first round of any tournament.

 

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19 hours ago, WillieBoy said:

Two things would improve the matches for me and one big one for tournaments.

First, twice as long as suggested with the second being actual turns for control towards a pin - no more of this "roll me over" crap. Yes, it is not easy but the leg lace of interminable rollovers is asinine. Turn to make progress towards a PIN.

Then, with tournaments - make them full Double Elimination so even the weakest know they will get two matches. Some travel thousands of miles for "one and done".

In addition I would allow two entries per weight(if the weight is qualified) for each nation - with the stipulation they do not meet in the first round of any tournament.

 

plus - no such thing as a match that is tied going to the last wrestler that scored. What a terrible concept.

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2 hours ago, mlbruem said:

plus - no such thing as a match that is tied going to the last wrestler that scored. What a terrible concept.

It’s not a terrible concept. It’s one of the best part of the rules.  It keeps the action going until the end of the match. 

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16 minutes ago, AnklePicker said:

It’s not a terrible concept. It’s one of the best part of the rules.  It keeps the action going until the end of the match. 

I generally  do not like the last scored wins criteria for a tie.  But that said, be the last one to score!  The rule I don't like, but it does put it all in the hands of the wrestlers. 

mspart

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Freestyle is generally quite fun to watch. Current rule set has helped to make this happen.  

My only ask would be to bring more clarity to decisions on points in certain situations.  I wish the rules committee came out with detailed videos showing proper point awards.  Things like continuation out of bounds.  Or awarding 2  when go OOB when no TD is apparent but perhaps threatened.  Clarity on grounded opponent when go OOB.  Seems like there is variation in refs calls.  Would be good to have numerous video examples of each to help with clarity.  

And on the original posters point.  Nah. I think enough time is given.

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Freestyle is generally quite fun to watch. Current rule set has helped to make this happen.  

My only ask would be to bring more clarity to decisions on points in certain situations.  I wish the rules committee came out with detailed videos showing proper point awards.  Things like continuation out of bounds.  Or awarding 2  when go OOB when no TD is apparent but perhaps threatened.  Clarity on grounded opponent when go OOB.  Seems like there is variation in refs calls.  Would be good to have numerous video examples of each to help with clarity.  

And on the original posters point.  Nah. I think enough time is given.

The out of bounds 2 continuation is pretty clear to me. Just as long as the action continues and results in a TD no matter how far out its 2.

 

If standing and no take down is the result, its 1 to the wrestler that didnt step out.

 

If grounded and both go out, 0.

 

The double leg, action stopped, one wrestler sitting on their butt but executing somewhat of a chest/wrap/lock and taking the wrestler, who shot the double, over...... I get confused at how they call that, I've seen 2-2 I've seen 2 for chest wrap 1 for "reverse" I've seen 2 for takedown 2 for exposure or 4-0.... I just wish I knew who was in control and I never do .

 

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On 5/13/2019 at 12:35 AM, dmm53 said:

(1) Place a maximum on the number of times you can turn a guy with a leg lace or gut.  Two times seems sufficient. 

Personally, I can't stand matches where a guy gets a takedown and immediately turns his opponent four times to end the match.

(2) Allow the guy on bottom to fight back more and resist (especially if you want to extend the time a top guy has to work).  I've never understood why they compel the bottom wrestler to "open up" so much and don't allow him to hand fight the position more extensively.  It seems counter to the very nature of the sport. 

 

1. Disagree. Making time or attempt requirements may seem good in theory, but athletes will figure out how to abuse it. I prefer the vague approach now that basically forces the top wrestler to either fight for points or get stood up. It works pretty well.

 2. Agreed. Not sure why fighting hands isn't allowed. Grabbing hands to stall shouldn't be allowed. The problem here is one guy is almost completely in defense mode. This makes stalling way more likely, which is why the rules are what they are I assume.

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On 5/13/2019 at 1:15 PM, GoNotQuietly said:

Continuous guts are fine; you have to return to a defensible position to get another.  Continuous laces have always been ridiculous; once you start rolling, either you go or your ligaments pop...that's not technical superiority, imo.

I don't really understand this. This is how a lot of wrestling moves work. a half only works because guys don't want their shoulders to pop out. Head pinches sometimes only work because a guy doesn't like being choked/having their neck wrenched. 

We see it all the time. Moves that work on lower level/younger guys don't in college sometimes because guys are tougher and more willing to deal with the pain. 

I feel like Zain's entire style revolves around these kinds of moves and he made a world team. Obviously he has clean technique, but some clean technique still relies on causing pain/potential injury to complete

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On 5/13/2019 at 1:21 PM, hammerlockthree said:

I have to point out that those claiming people aren't making an effort on top are ignoring that they aren't starting because they don't have time to finish. If they were guaranteed 20, the technical complexity of what they had time to hit would go up exponentially. We'd a hundred techniques pretty much lost to time. 

I get your point, but requiring a certain amount of time on the mat is going to be gamed by guys to stall and waste clock time. The way it is now minimizes this. Also - what if you are a takedown guy, down by 3, with 30 seconds left. Snyder for example. He doesn't want to waste clock time sitting on top for 20 seconds. Should he be forced to go for a 4 because there isn't enough time for a takedown, 20 seconds on the ground, and another takedown? 

I also don't think this is the reason guys don't work for turns. Most guys have a lot of trouble turning people unless they land in specific positions from the takedown. It isn't worth the tremendous energy it takes to try and set up a turn from scratch, especially considering the completion rate is very low for most guys

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22 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Yeah guaranteed time would be a bad idea, I think it should be at the referees discretion, but they should wait longer. 

I can prove time is the reason guys don't work for turns, just go back 25 years and watch some wrestling.

Why are you trying to make America drop off again? Snyder will never beat Sadulaev if they make this rule change.  

  In all seriousness our par terre defense has improved dramatically in the last few years. Offensively I think we've made improvements too, but not across the board. We don't really have anyone who is known for their turns on the world level besides JB. Fix has some solid offense but rarely hits it vs the upper level guys (although I hope that changes. He has time). Colon is good there, but I think not super elite. I think J'den Cox might showcase some crazy turns at worlds this year, assuming he beats Bo. I think he has jumped level again

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On 5/14/2019 at 2:31 PM, Housebuye said:

I don't really understand this. This is how a lot of wrestling moves work. a half only works because guys don't want their shoulders to pop out. Head pinches sometimes only work because a guy doesn't like being choked/having their neck wrenched. 

We see it all the time. Moves that work on lower level/younger guys don't in college sometimes because guys are tougher and more willing to deal with the pain. 

I feel like Zain's entire style revolves around these kinds of moves and he made a world team. Obviously he has clean technique, but some clean technique still relies on causing pain/potential injury to complete

These are completely different situations than a continuous leg lace, though.   All the examples you listed are either non-continuous or pinning combinations.  You can't lock up a half nelson or a head pinch and turn the opponent a half dozen times without ever threatening a fall.  The two exceptions are "gator-rolls" and bow-and-arrows, which I am perfectly fine limiting to one unless you can progress towards a fall for the same reasons as the lace.

Edit: Actually, I think you should be able to do continuous bow-and-arrows. 

Edited by GoNotQuietly

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If continuous turns are a bad idea,  it is because they eliminate a lot of potential entertaining wrestling, until the average match is 6-6 at a high level, I'm not sure you can make that argument.

By comparison, Saduleav pinning snyder was the most anticlimactic thing ever, yet not even the most mindless USA fan suggested getting rid of falls. 

Edited by hammerlockthree

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