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Did Iowa decide to ignore Freestyle?

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9 minutes ago, MrDream said:

It's sad to see a freestyle talent like Lee's wasted in the early part of his career. I'm a freestyle junkie, so I have a biased view. So take my opinion with a grain of salt. 

I agree that Brands' job to have the University of Iowa win, but it's also to promote the program and develop athletes. Look at the notoriety that Snyder brought to tOSU when we was successful on the senior level WHILE competing at tOSU. What would that do for TnT and Iowa if Lee won a World Championship this year or an Olympic Gold in 2020? I'm sure every light weight recruit in the country would want to be training with TnT/Perry. 

I don't see how Lee wrestling freestyle would hurt recruiting in anyway....if he gets hurt...yes, it would hurt Iowa's chance drastically to beat PSU....but darn, Iowa gets 3rd/4th in the country instead of 1st/2nd. I don't think dropping a couple places nationally because of a freak injury would "hurt" recruiting. If that's the case, Iowa's recruiting is doomed....they've finished runner up 1 time since 2011. 

Snyder is an anomaly. Yianni and Gable are as well.  What additional notoriety did he bring to tOSU?  Everybody in the wrestling world already knew who he was.  People outside of wrestling still don't know, nor do they care.

Maybe Lee knows that he can't beat Gillman at this point and would rather focus on getting 100% healthy and going after a 3rd national title and then taking his shot in 2020.  Who are we do say that Lee's talent is being wasted?  Maybe he could do what Yianni and Gable have done to this point.  I personally think he could have made Final X.  But I don't think he's wasting his talent by sitting out right now.

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7 minutes ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

Snyder is an anomaly. Yianni and Gable are as well.  What additional notoriety did he bring to tOSU?  Everybody in the wrestling world already knew who he was.  People outside of wrestling still don't know, nor do they care.

Maybe Lee knows that he can't beat Gillman at this point and would rather focus on getting 100% healthy and going after a 3rd national title and then taking his shot in 2020.  Who are we do say that Lee's talent is being wasted?  Maybe he could do what Yianni and Gable have done to this point.  I personally think he could have made Final X.  But I don't think he's wasting his talent by sitting out right now.

If you are considering Yianni and Gable as an "anomaly"....then what in the world is Lee?? A 3x World Champ.....has to be considered an "anomaly". 

If Lee can't beat Gilman....then he has really regressed in the freestyle realm. I would have to believe that a guy like Lee with a plethora of offensive attacks and his tilt/turn ability can beat Gilman who is a clubber/pusher pretty consistently. I don't believe that strength would be an issue with Lee as we have seen how he handled Suriano and Tomasello his freshman year, both of those guys, to me are stronger than Gilman. Let's look at the Gilman realistically, he won a silver based on his draw....heck in the title match I don't believe he touched Takahasi's legs. He was pounded at World's in 2018 and beat handily this year at Yarygin. He isn't a world beater. Maybe this year he will surprise some people if he makes the team, but I doubt it. He isn't a realistic medal threat. 

I personally believe TnT have a bad taste in their mouth after the Dennis/Ramos deal and don't want that to happen again, therefore they will allow Gilman to be "the guy" until 2020. Then it's free game for Lee to jump in. 

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9 minutes ago, MrDream said:

If you are considering Yianni and Gable as an "anomaly"....then what in the world is Lee?? A 3x World Champ.....has to be considered an "anomaly". 

If Lee can't beat Gilman....then he has really regressed in the freestyle realm. I would have to believe that a guy like Lee with a plethora of offensive attacks and his tilt/turn ability can beat Gilman who is a clubber/pusher pretty consistently. I don't believe that strength would be an issue with Lee as we have seen how he handled Suriano and Tomasello his freshman year, both of those guys, to me are stronger than Gilman. Let's look at the Gilman realistically, he won a silver based on his draw....heck in the title match I don't believe he touched Takahasi's legs. He was pounded at World's in 2018 and beat handily this year at Yarygin. He isn't a world beater. Maybe this year he will surprise some people if he makes the team, but I doubt it. He isn't a realistic medal threat. 

I personally believe TnT have a bad taste in their mouth after the Dennis/Ramos deal and don't want that to happen again, therefore they will allow Gilman to be "the guy" until 2020. Then it's free game for Lee to jump in. 

For a guy that calls himself a freestyle "junkie" you don't come off as knowing all that much about it.

Lee was a world champ and is a great wrestler.  BUT, he was a multiple world champ at a VERY light weight in young age groups.  The "clubber" you are talking about just so happens to be a silver medalist and 5th place finisher at the 2 World's he has competed in.  Pounded?  He did get beat bad in the semis, but he lost in the last seconds in the bronze match 5-4.  As far as getting beat handily at Yarygin goes, he took a fricking bronze medal losing 12-6 to Magomedov, who is pretty fricking good.

So, you used  2nd, 5th and 3rd pla,ce finishes at the toughest tournaments in the World to make Gilman look bad?????  Oh, and guess what, he just won the OTT Challenge and is wrestling Fix again to be the rep.

Finally, your personal belief sounds more like Iowa trolling than any real sentient ability.  If Lee wanted to wrestle freestyle and, more importantly, was fully healthy to do so, you would see him out there.  But, to say he would HAVE to regress to not be able to beat Gilman is laughable. US Sophomore  Senior Freestyle World Medalists don't grow on trees..........

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59 minutes ago, MrDream said:

If you are considering Yianni and Gable as an "anomaly"....then what in the world is Lee?? A 3x World Champ.....has to be considered an "anomaly". 

If Lee can't beat Gilman....then he has really regressed in the freestyle realm. I would have to believe that a guy like Lee with a plethora of offensive attacks and his tilt/turn ability can beat Gilman who is a clubber/pusher pretty consistently. I don't believe that strength would be an issue with Lee as we have seen how he handled Suriano and Tomasello his freshman year, both of those guys, to me are stronger than Gilman. Let's look at the Gilman realistically, he won a silver based on his draw....heck in the title match I don't believe he touched Takahasi's legs. He was pounded at World's in 2018 and beat handily this year at Yarygin. He isn't a world beater. Maybe this year he will surprise some people if he makes the team, but I doubt it. He isn't a realistic medal threat. 

I personally believe TnT have a bad taste in their mouth after the Dennis/Ramos deal and don't want that to happen again, therefore they will allow Gilman to be "the guy" until 2020. Then it's free game for Lee to jump in. 

Anomaly as in winning world/Olympic gold while in college.  Remains to be seen if Yianni and/or Gable can do that this year.  Lee's freestyle resume is very impressive, but it was high school at 50 kg.  Would I have loved to see him go for it this year?  Absolutely.  But I'm willing to bet that his goal is the Olympics in 2020 and he wants to be in peak form, injury free, etc. next year.  If that means taking off 2019 to get his mind and body 100% so be it.

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44 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

For a guy that calls himself a freestyle "junkie" you don't come off as knowing all that much about it.

Lee was a world champ and is a great wrestler.  BUT, he was a multiple world champ at a VERY light weight in young age groups.  The "clubber" you are talking about just so happens to be a silver medalist and 5th place finisher at the 2 World's he has competed in.  Pounded?  He did get beat bad in the semis, but he lost in the last seconds in the bronze match 5-4.  As far as getting beat handily at Yarygin goes, he took a fricking bronze medal losing 12-6 to Magomedov, who is pretty fricking good.

So, you used  2nd, 5th and 3rd pla,ce finishes at the toughest tournaments in the World to make Gilman look bad?????  Oh, and guess what, he just won the OTT Challenge and is wrestling Fix again to be the rep.

Finally, your personal belief sounds more like Iowa trolling than any real sentient ability.  If Lee wanted to wrestle freestyle and, more importantly, was fully healthy to do so, you would see him out there.  But, to say he would HAVE to regress to not be able to beat Gilman is laughable. US Sophomore  Senior Freestyle World Medalists don't grow on trees..........

1). "Iowa trolling"....if I didn't like Iowa why on earth would I care to comment on one of their wrestlers not wrestling freestyle? Maybe I do like them and want to see them gain whatever edge they can on the recruiting trail against PSU and tOSU....

2). Congrats to Gilman. He's not beating Takahashi on a regular basis, nor is he beating Uguev, Suaduleav, or Ortega on a regular basis either. He's also not better than Atli. So....yes....he's a top 10 guy in the World. Yes...that's awesome....I just believe Lee is better than that. 

3). For calling me out for "not knowing all that much" about freestyle....you're staking your claim with Gilman on his silver medal finish in 2017. I can't even respond to that..But...yes....I don't know anything about international freestyle wrestling. 

4). Congrats on making Final X. I'm super excited to watch Fix and Gilman wrestle it out to see who can finish 5th at World's!

I really hope our 57kg rep proves me wrong. I will gladly eat crow for the US to win a medal at that weight. I just don't see it happening with Fix/Gilman. 

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19 minutes ago, MrDream said:

1). "Iowa trolling"....if I didn't like Iowa why on earth would I care to comment on one of their wrestlers not wrestling freestyle? Maybe I do like them and want to see them gain whatever edge they can on the recruiting trail against PSU and tOSU....

2). Congrats to Gilman. He's not beating Takahashi on a regular basis, nor is he beating Uguev, Suaduleav, or Ortega on a regular basis either. He's also not better than Atli. So....yes....he's a top 10 guy in the World. Yes...that's awesome....I just believe Lee is better than that. 

3). For calling me out for "not knowing all that much" about freestyle....you're staking your claim with Gilman on his silver medal finish in 2017. I can't even respond to that..But...yes....I don't know anything about international freestyle wrestling. 

4). Congrats on making Final X. I'm super excited to watch Fix and Gilman wrestle it out to see who can finish 5th at World's!

I really hope our 57kg rep proves me wrong. I will gladly eat crow for the US to win a medal at that weight. I just don't see it happening with Fix/Gilman. 

1.)You keep bringing it up as some kind of deathknell for Iowa recruiting.  That is pretty ridiculous.  Junior World participation wasn't going to make 1 iota of difference and Lee is MAYBE the only guy ready for Senior's and I truly don't believe his health is there yet.

2.) & 3.)  Top 5 ish is LEGIT, PERIOD!  Gilman is much more than just a "clubber" and a Junior World Champ at 110lbs has a lot to prove before he should even be considered a contender let alone a favorite.  I LOVE Lee but, he has sooo much time that rushing him makes NO sense.

4.)  5th at World's is bad?  What have you finished top 5 in?  Conference? Counties? Districts? Regionals, State(s)? JC? NAIA? DIII? DII? DI?  Your response is EXACTLY why I call "trolling".........

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18 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

1.)You keep bringing it up as some kind of deathknell for Iowa recruiting.  That is pretty ridiculous.  Junior World participation wasn't going to make 1 iota of difference and Lee is MAYBE the only guy ready for Senior's and I truly don't believe his health is there yet.

2.) & 3.)  Top 5 ish is LEGIT, PERIOD!  Gilman is much more than just a "clubber" and a Junior World Champ at 110lbs has a lot to prove before he should even be considered a contender let alone a favorite.  I LOVE Lee but, he has sooo much time that rushing him makes NO sense.

4.)  5th at World's is bad?  What have you finished top 5 in?  Conference? Counties? Districts? Regionals, State(s)? JC? NAIA? DIII? DII? DI?  Your response is EXACTLY why I call "trolling".........

4.)  5th at World's is bad?  What have you finished top 5 in?  Conference? Counties? Districts? Regionals, State(s)? JC? NAIA? DIII? DII? DI?  Your response is EXACTLY why I call "trolling".........

^Wow. What a comment. Someone must be upset. 

Why would my accolades or lack of accolades mean anything when discussing a placement of a professional wrestler? Does my accolades have anything to do with Gilman/Fix finishing lower than I believe Lee would had he been competing for the last two years? No. Remember when people on here make comments they are in relation to the people competing. Look up the term "relative" and find out how to comprehend a comment. I can tell you are emotionally tied to Gilman/Iowa due to the nature of your comments. 

It looks as if I will have to give a disclaimer....5th in the World in ANYTHING is great! I just believe had Lee been wrestling freestyle at the senior level for the last two years he would be better than both Fix and Gilman. 

 

You following now....

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6 minutes ago, MrDream said:

4.)  5th at World's is bad?  What have you finished top 5 in?  Conference? Counties? Districts? Regionals, State(s)? JC? NAIA? DIII? DII? DI?  Your response is EXACTLY why I call "trolling".........

^Wow. What a comment. Someone must be upset. 

Why would my accolades or lack of accolades mean anything when discussing a placement of a professional wrestler? Does my accolades have anything to do with Gilman/Fix finishing lower than I believe Lee would had he been competing for the last two years? No. Remember when people on here make comments they are in relation to the people competing. Look up the term "relative" and find out how to comprehend a comment. I can tell you are emotionally tied to Gilman/Iowa due to the nature of your comments. 

It looks as if I will have to give a disclaimer....5th in the World in ANYTHING is great! I just believe had Lee been wrestling freestyle at the senior level for the last two years he would be better than both Fix and Gilman. 

 

You following now....

Then JUST say your last sentence and leave it at that and I would follow and maybe even agree with you.  But, all the other crap is EXACTLY that, CRAP!

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23 hours ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

Tom Brands is the head coach of the Iowa hawkeyes.  His number 1 priority should be winning a national title for Iowa.  Failing to do so will eventually lead to his termination.  If he thinks having guys sit out a season or 2 of freestyle in order to potentially keep his job, then that's what he should do.  Anybody that watched Spencer Lee this past season knows he was not right.  I would imagine that he is not ready, physically or mentally, to jump into senior freestyle.  Regarding the others mentioned in this thread like Cass and Assad, I have no idea why they skipped this weekend, but neither does anybody else.  Maybe they tweaked an injury during training or got sick.  who knows?

There is no way all of the Iowa guys got hurt at the same time. 

Spencer also didn’t wrestle last year. He didn’t look off then. 

There is a pattern here. Recruits notice these things. Iowa’s biggest issue has been recruiting and they started fixing it, but you will not get top 10 big board level guys consistently if you don’t wrestle freestyle. Those guys mostly have world and Olympic aspirations. 

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4 hours ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

I don't know if it does or doesn't hurt recruiting, but I lean towards hurting.  It's a catch 22, I think.  If his guys wrestle freestyle and get injured and miss time, or make the world team and that impacts their preparation for next season and they fail to win a national title, people will be calling for Tom's head.  Keep guys out of freestyle in order to give yourself the best shot at a national title and people say Iowa is a crappy spot to go if you want to wrestle in the Olympics one day.  Guy can't win, so he needs to do what's best for the Iowa program, which is trying to put them in position to beat PSU.  And if Spencer Lee not wrestling freestyle is the way to do that then so be it.  Apparently Lee is on board with it.

Every other power team has their guys wrestling freestyle. Risk of injury is not a good reason. 

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3 hours ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

Snyder is an anomaly. Yianni and Gable are as well.  What additional notoriety did he bring to tOSU?  Everybody in the wrestling world already knew who he was.  People outside of wrestling still don't know, nor do they care.

Maybe Lee knows that he can't beat Gillman at this point and would rather focus on getting 100% healthy and going after a 3rd national title and then taking his shot in 2020.  Who are we do say that Lee's talent is being wasted?  Maybe he could do what Yianni and Gable have done to this point.  I personally think he could have made Final X.  But I don't think he's wasting his talent by sitting out right now.

Notoriety in terms of recruitment. That absolutely helps tOSU. 

Claiming Snyder, Gable and Yianni are anomalies but Spencer Lee isn’t is a bit disingenuous. Spencer Lee is a 3 time age level world champ. Even snyder and Yianni didn’t pull that off. Spencer Lee is one of the best recruits for both freestyle and folkstyle in years and would be arguably the best ever if we weren’t in this insane era for USA wrestling. 

Also - this isn’t just about Lee. Lee could very well have sat out for personal reasons. I won’t judge a team or coach based on 1 guy. What we see however is a pattern, as detailed in the original post. 

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59 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Every other power team has their guys wrestling freestyle. Risk of injury is not a good reason. 

Maybe I missed it, but was there this outrage last year when nobody from PSU was wrestling freestyle?  This year, the only current PSU guys that wrestled were Hall and RBY.  How come there was no Joseph, Cassar or Nick Lee?

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This is outrage for the sake of outrage.  HWC still had guys representing with Gilman, Sorensen and Brooks and all of them did well.  Cass has yet to wrestle a varsity match.  His missing Juniors wasn't going to make a recruit say "forget it".  Warner had some major issues coming back.  I am sure he had a lot of say in not going back.  No one else on the roster has really shown a significant drive towards freestyle except Lee and that stopped once he got to Iowa.  I think that is almost solely based on health.

Iowa will NOT lose a thing due to these decisions and truly thinking otherwise is laughable.  In fact, if they do end up winning NCAA's this upcoming season, that decision will ONLY help them.........

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

This is outrage for the sake of outrage.  HWC still had guys representing with Gilman, Sorensen and Brooks and all of them did well.  Cass has yet to wrestle a varsity match.  His missing Juniors wasn't going to make a recruit say "forget it".  Warner had some major issues coming back.  I am sure he had a lot of say in not going back.  No one else on the roster has really shown a significant drive towards freestyle except Lee and that stopped once he got to Iowa.  I think that is almost solely based on health.

Iowa will NOT lose a thing due to these decisions and truly thinking otherwise is laughable.  In fact, if they do end up winning NCAA's this upcoming season, that decision will ONLY help them.........

I think you are missing the point here...or just so fixated on your point that you can't see through....

In regards to Iowa, who else on the roster could potentially challenge for a Senior level spot besides Lee? No one. Cass would have more than likely been a World Team member this year due to his showing at the Open, Brands looked good but I don't believe he consistently can beat Carr at freestyle, Warner is....well just Warner. I believe last year he proved that he has to focus on one discipline to be very good. Last year he was brutal at getting off the bottom. Marinelli...well....maybe. Who else is there? Murin, Young, Wilcke, Kemerer, DeSanto. I don't know enough about those guys to comment if they have a real shot at making any sort of World Team. If a wrestler doesn't have a legit shot at making a team, by all means keep him off the mat. My point was solely pointed to Lee. Lee is a special talent in the world of freestyle....like enough that he's the best freestyle this country has seen in a long time. I believe the way he improves at freestyle....is wrestle freestyle when he is able. I personally believe that's how you become better. 

My fundamental belief is that recruits go to a college that will best prepare them for their goal. If their goal is to be a NCAA team champ, then yes, if Iowa wins a team title next year that will boost recruiting. If a recruits goal is to win an Olympic/World championship then seeing Lee sit out will hurt recruiting. 

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42 minutes ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

Maybe I missed it, but was there this outrage last year when nobody from PSU was wrestling freestyle?  This year, the only current PSU guys that wrestled were Hall and RBY.  How come there was no Joseph, Cassar or Nick Lee?

Deflection. PSU doesn’t have to worry about recruitment. Iowa was  

They also had more senior level guys competing than any other club I would guess, so having a few guys miss is reasonable. 

2018 trials is completely different than 2019 trials too. Olympics are in 2020. 

You don’t have to agree with the fact that this will impact recruiting. That is and educated guess. To pretend like these two situations are the same is silly 

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8 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Deflection. PSU doesn’t have to worry about recruitment. Iowa was  

They also had more senior level guys competing than any other club I would guess, so having a few guys miss is reasonable. 

2018 trials is completely different than 2019 trials too. Olympics are in 2020. 

You don’t have to agree with the fact that this will impact recruiting. That is and educated guess. To pretend like these two situations are the same is silly 

The situations are the same. 

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9 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Deflection. PSU doesn’t have to worry about recruitment. Iowa was  

They also had more senior level guys competing than any other club I would guess, so having a few guys miss is reasonable. 

2018 trials is completely different than 2019 trials too. Olympics are in 2020. 

You don’t have to agree with the fact that this will impact recruiting. That is and educated guess. To pretend like these two situations are the same is silly 

all the PSU guys that were still on the roster sat out last year, including Zain who just finished up his career.  So basically it was DT and Molinaro that were active last year.

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3 hours ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

all the PSU guys that were still on the roster sat out last year, including Zain who just finished up his career.  So basically it was DT and Molinaro that were active last year.

Um...this is factually inaccurate. Also psu doesn’t have to worry about recruiting so the point is moot

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3 hours ago, MrDream said:

I think you are missing the point here...or just so fixated on your point that you can't see through....

In regards to Iowa, who else on the roster could potentially challenge for a Senior level spot besides Lee? No one. Cass would have more than likely been a World Team member this year due to his showing at the Open, Brands looked good but I don't believe he consistently can beat Carr at freestyle, Warner is....well just Warner. I believe last year he proved that he has to focus on one discipline to be very good. Last year he was brutal at getting off the bottom. Marinelli...well....maybe. Who else is there? Murin, Young, Wilcke, Kemerer, DeSanto. I don't know enough about those guys to comment if they have a real shot at making any sort of World Team. If a wrestler doesn't have a legit shot at making a team, by all means keep him off the mat. My point was solely pointed to Lee. Lee is a special talent in the world of freestyle....like enough that he's the best freestyle this country has seen in a long time. I believe the way he improves at freestyle....is wrestle freestyle when he is able. I personally believe that's how you become better. 

My fundamental belief is that recruits go to a college that will best prepare them for their goal. If their goal is to be a NCAA team champ, then yes, if Iowa wins a team title next year that will boost recruiting. If a recruits goal is to win an Olympic/World championship then seeing Lee sit out will hurt recruiting. 

Seeing a true sophomore sit out a senior event that he has NEVER competed in isn’t going to hurt him or Iowa one bit. The simple truth is he is NOT ready physically and maybe even mentally. On top of that, the last time he wrestled above 110, he lost to Fix.   Rushing into it isn’t going to help him or Iowa.

Iowa has still OWNED 57kg for quite some time. That will stand out more than whether or not 2 sophomores and a freshman wrestled at the trials. 

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12 hours ago, MNRodent said:

Do you think Lee would have participated in the trials if Gilman wasn't in the picture?  

 

This is all foreign to me. So....this leads me to speculation. 

After his freshman year I found it very odd that he didn't compete. 

It isn't uncommon for him to sit out this year due to the long recovery time Mono takes. 

 

I would really hope that Gilman isn't one of the reasons Lee hasn't wrestled a senior event....but I would be lying if I told you I believed that Gilman being at 57 doesn't have a little something to do with it. 

 

Hopefully Lee wins multiple Olympic/World Titles over the next 10 years so this can be a forgotten topic.....

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