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US freestyles need to open up and go for big throws?

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The FloPro headline says "Nolf Steals It Late With Hail Mary 4". Most people don't consider Nolf a big thrower, and yet he won that match against the best freestyle IMar we have ever seen with a big throw. Does anyone think that US freestylers need to open up and go for more big throws in international competition? I feel that we are too conservative, depending on leg attacks, allowing foreign competition to plan for defensive crotch locks and exposure points. It would shock me to see a Gilman or a Zain actually go for a big move. I feel that being more unpredictable makes one more dangerous. Is our conservative leg-attack based offense a carryover from folk style that we can never rid ourselves of?

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We're leg grabbers- always have been.  Our young kids don't learn throwing proficiently or consistently.  Additionally, there's a lot that can go wrong in big matches if you don't execute correctly.  IMO, our feet wrestling has never been a problem - international wrestlers don't typically like our aggressive style and pushing of pace on our feet. Rather than throwing, I'd like to see us be better in par terre.

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14 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

since the US has been floundering at the world level lately we should probably abandon our style and take on another countries.

This...

However... I do see the point of the OP.  I think there's room to fill out the overall arsenal of the US style.  I really like seeing Demas and Fix go upper body to the inside trips.  It's dynamic and exciting and when executed, lethal.

Snyder's suplex at BTS was a thing of beauty, and J'Dens was awkward as hell.  Took strength beyond strength, but wasnt "graceful".  

Clean throws are fun, lethal, and downright violent.  I like it... 

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The problem is, throws, especially in freestyle (as opposed to folk), are extremely high risk, so you have to be exceptional here for this to viable. 

We aren’t good at throwing. I don’t know how else to put it. Folkstyle doesn’t incentivize throws because we focus on who ends up on top. If you watch Judo, often times the thrower ends up on bottom (which is why Judo doesn’t always translate to BJJ without modification)

 we would need to become highly technical in this area and it won’t happen with a focus on folkstyle. I’m not one of those people who thinks we should switch to freestyle, but this is one area where we will always be weak unless we do change. 

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11 hours ago, treep2000 said:

Snyder's suplex at BTS was a thing of beauty...

i was going to laugh at this absurd statement, but, decided it would be counterproductive...

regardless...

folk stifles freedom and wrestling...

free promotes it... 

you can be so much more creative in free, but, you cannot just flip a switch and decide you want to wrestle after a lifetime of backing up and cross body rides...

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I don't see the original post as suggesting we abandon a style that has been pretty good of late; I see it as a suggestion that we add to that style and work to not sit back on our laurels.  Our World team last year was one of the best I've ever seen; sure, the Iranians and some other nations were down, but our team was exceptional.  That said, the Russians still beat us.One thing other countries typically don't have to worry about is an American throwing them--makes it easier to gameplan against us.  Russian kids grow up learning to attack legs and throw with equal proficiency.  Because of the limitations of folk (slamming people is penalized, not rewarded) we avoid most throwing techniques.

Sitting back and thinking we've got it all figured out is one of the surest steps toward a future downturn.

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^ Agreed! Also throwing doesn’t necessarily mean “opening up” or going for “big” moves. They can be used as counters, esp to heavy upper body pressure (which many US wrestlers do), and can be a way to mix it up during handfighting and ties, or to finesse a TD. Having knowledge of throws also makes you less likely to be caught by one. Plus they look cool and make for great highlight reel material.

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

i was going to laugh at this absurd statement, but, decided it would be counterproductive...

regardless...

folk stifles freedom and wrestling...

free promotes it... 

you can be so much more creative in free, but, you cannot just flip a switch and decide you want to wrestle after a lifetime of backing up and cross body rides...

It's not absurd... I thought it was awesome!  Hey man... we each have our own opinions... 

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couple of other things to think about...

as a country, our kids compete exponentially more and start competing younger than just about any other country... plus, the little league win at all costs to stroke the parents ego is pervasive...

easiest way to win as a youth?

back up... don't shoot... wait for the other kid to take a bad shot... blah blah blah... so, the vast majority of american kids are learning how to do the bare minimum to win a tourney no one cares about instead of learning to open up with their styles and be creative...

throw in awful folk rules that promote not wrestling and this is what you end up with... 

go to any USA regional and it is easy to pick out the kids who actively pursue free/greco as opposed to those who do not...

 

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5 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

It's not absurd... I thought it was awesome!  Hey man... we each have our own opinions... 

i was thrilled to see him try something, but, it did not show any real technique... no back arch at all... nothing "beautiful" about it... the 5 was given purely because it was snyder at BTS... 

to further expand, the actual lift by cox was way more impressive and a display of just brute strength... the end result looked equally as bland...

again, props to both for actually trying something... 

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

i was thrilled to see him try something, but, it did not show any real technique... no back arch at all... nothing "beautiful" about it... the 5 was given purely because it was snyder at BTS... 

to further expand, the actual lift by cox was way more impressive and a display of just brute strength... the end result looked equally as bland...

again, props to both for actually trying something... 

Fair... I liked Snyder's better, and maybe it's a bias because we hardly ever see it anymore from our guys... Which, proved the point of this thread.  

 

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

couple of other things to think about...

as a country, our kids compete exponentially more and start competing younger than just about any other country... plus, the little league win at all costs to stroke the parents ego is pervasive...

easiest way to win as a youth?

back up... don't shoot... wait for the other kid to take a bad shot... blah blah blah... so, the vast majority of american kids are learning how to do the bare minimum to win a tourney no one cares about instead of learning to open up with their styles and be creative...

throw in awful folk rules that promote not wrestling and this is what you end up with... 

go to any USA regional and it is easy to pick out the kids who actively pursue free/greco as opposed to those who do not...

 

Could not agree more with the competing part--way too much time and energy wasted on chasing plastic monster trophies and trinkets that could be spent on learning technique.  Great illustration:  Carson Kharchla was not allowed to compete until he was in 8th grade; his father is from the old-school Russian system and it didn't hurt Carson a bit.  I also remember Mark Churella telling me his sons did not compete until middle school age; they could pick one meet they wanted to go to (something like the Ohio State Fair meet) and that was it.  It's not that they weren't training, practicing, and learning; quite the contrary.  More could learn from this model.

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4 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Could not agree more with the competing part--way too much time and energy wasted on chasing plastic monster trophies and trinkets that could be spent on learning technique.  Great illustration:  Carson Kharchla was not allowed to compete until he was in 8th grade; his father is from the old-school Russian system and it didn't hurt Carson a bit.  I also remember Mark Churella telling me his sons did not compete until middle school age; they could pick one meet they wanted to go to (something like the Ohio State Fair meet) and that was it.  It's not that they weren't training, practicing, and learning; quite the contrary.  More could learn from this model.

i could write a decent sized novella around my thoughts on this subject...

but, reader's digest version...

i have no problem with competing early and often based on the kid's personality... you could cite many examples either way to prove whatever point you wanted to make...

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Maybe...but this the strongest the US team and program has ever been. Why would we need to dramatically change anything. We have 3 world reigning champs currently and a few more who certainly could be. 

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5 hours ago, Coach_J said:

I don't see the original post as suggesting we abandon a style that has been pretty good of late; I see it as a suggestion that we add to that style and work to not sit back on our laurels.  Our World team last year was one of the best I've ever seen; sure, the Iranians and some other nations were down, but our team was exceptional.  That said, the Russians still beat us.One thing other countries typically don't have to worry about is an American throwing them--makes it easier to gameplan against us.  Russian kids grow up learning to attack legs and throw with equal proficiency.  Because of the limitations of folk (slamming people is penalized, not rewarded) we avoid most throwing techniques.

Sitting back and thinking we've got it all figured out is one of the surest steps toward a future downturn.

Thanks, Coach. Your response accurately addresses the meaning of my original post. It's interesting how people tend to put words and their own ideas into the mouths of original posters! In no way was I criticizing the arsenal of US freestylers; I was merely recommending useful additions to the arsenal, which would make us more unpredictable and effective. Comments with the attitude of "We're great. Why would we need to dramatically change anything." are completely missing the point.  Where did my comment say "dramatically change"?  I merely recommended that more of our freestylers adopt throwing technique to add to their attack (and defense) options. Let's be honest, we already have a decent amount of wrestlers who are comfortable with throwing. As more of our youth focus on freestyle at a younger age, it will change our freestyle techniques. Imagine US wrestlers displaying the kind of creativity of a Nolf in folkstyle to freestyle. Or simply go and watch some videos of Russian Nationals and marvel at some of the creative throwing and offense you see. Perhaps not all of it will translate to elite senior men's wrestling, but it certainly makes things lively and interesting.  Could even bring more fans to the sport.

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As a HS coach I’ve been implementing throws (lat drop, step around, hip toss and arm) as part of our warm up. I try to teach them to hit them smoothly and actually lightly.  

When a throw presents itself you should know how to hit one. I teach them to not necessarily go out there looking for the throw, but if a guy is pushing into you in over unders or when you jack him up off a single and end up in a whizzer a lat drop is like a hot knife threw butter. 

Since we’ve implemented them in our warm ups I can’t tell you how many times we’ve hit them in big moments. And I hate the idea that they are “high risk.”  They are high risk if you haven’t worked on them and aren’t proficient at them or you go out only looking for them but I’d say their scoring percentages per attempts are just as high as our single legs. 

I think a major factor in the US lack of throws is Gable’s high percentage mindset that permeated our country for a few decades. I want my guys to be comfortable wherever the match goes. When we get most of our competition in an over under position they are simply looking to clear out.  I want my guys to be dangerous everywhere. That’s where I think the Russians really excel is being proficient in every single position not just the high percentage ones. 

I think the most underrated throw might be an arm throw.  I remember Cejudo saying he was shocked when he was over in Russia how many dudes were hitting arm throws.  

Last point let’s not forget in freestyle they have the slip rule. That creates even more incentive to try them. 

Edited by AnklePicker

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As mentioned by coach_J, we don't need to abandon what we have but enhance it.  I wouldn't categorize the need to score feet to back points as a "throw" however.  For instance, a simple knee block can be thrown sideways (think Gadsen over Snyder in NCAA finals)...very low risk.  The reason it is difficult to execute is guys constantly burying their heads in the guys chest.  We used to see more feet to back takedowns because the refs always yelled "head up blue" during freestyle as this was considered passivity.  This also encouraged chest to chest, over under positions, which is exciting wrestling (Randy Lewis, Andrea Metzger, Sergei Belaglozov, Bo Nickol, etc., etc.,).

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9 hours ago, AnklePicker said:

As a HS coach I’ve been implementing throws (lat drop, step around, hip toss and arm) as part of our warm up. I try to teach them to hit them smoothly and actually lightly.  

When a throw presents itself you should know how to hit one. I teach them to not necessarily go out there looking for the throw, but if a guy is pushing into you in over unders or when you jack him up off a single and end up in a whizzer a lat drop is like a hot knife threw butter. 

Since we’ve implemented them in our warm ups I can’t tell you how many times we’ve hit them in big moments. And I hate the idea that they are “high risk.”  They are high risk if you haven’t worked on them and aren’t proficient at them or you go out only looking for them but I’d say their scoring percentages per attempts are just as high as our single legs. 

I think a major factor in the US lack of throws is Gable’s high percentage mindset that permeated our country for a few decades. I want my guys to be comfortable wherever the match goes. When we get most of our competition in an over under position they are simply looking to clear out.  I want my guys to be dangerous everywhere. That’s where I think the Russians really excel is being proficient in every single position not just the high percentage ones. 

I think the most underrated throw might be an arm throw.  I remember Cejudo saying he was shocked when he was over in Russia how many dudes were hitting arm throws.  

Last point let’s not forget in freestyle they have the slip rule. That creates even more incentive to try them. 

Loved your post.

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