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NJDan

Why is Downey being Given (or Gifted) the spot?

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10 minutes ago, NJDan said:

To me it would be appropriate to say that Downey did not win Final X so he did not win a spot at the Worlds.  Why not re-open the competition and let Downey wrestle off against Bo Nickal or Dieringer or any of the runners up at the surrounding weights?

You can't change weights mid-process because you lose and think you might be able to beat the guy at a weight next to yours. Downey won the 86 kg spot by winning the US Open and then the trials, and now final x where he will essentially accept 2 forfeits from DT. It's against the ethic of the sport and would set up potentially disastrous situations down the road if they were to allow Nickal or Ringer to wrestle off Downey despite neither of them ever wrestling 86 kg. You'd have guys asking for special wrestle offs every year. The only reason people are having this conversation is because Downey rubs people the wrong way. It's not like he's some scrub. He's a junior world silver medalist, has a great freestyle skillset, and is an amazing athlete. I think we're going to be fine there this year. He's not a bad second option behind DT. 

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You make some good points, but Nickal and Dieringer did not lose. Isn't the point to send the best team?  The USA gave DT a bye with the idea that anyone else must beat DT to earn the spot. But no one beat DT. So the question is what to do now. I am not sure making the WTT winner beat someone else at Final X violates the ethic of the sport. Put another way, one can say that PD did not so anything more to earn a spot than other WTT winners (who go on to lose Final X) so he is no more worthy than they are.

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You make some good points, but Nickal and Dieringer did not lose. Isn't the point to send the best team?  The USA gave DT a bye with the idea that anyone else must beat DT to earn the spot. But no one beat DT. So the question is what to do now. I am not sure making the WTT winner beat someone else at Final X violates the ethic of the sport. Put another way, one can say that PD did not so anything more to earn a spot than other WTT winners (who go on to lose Final X) so he is no more worthy than they are.
DT basically forfeited the spot in a tournament setting.

Yeah, it's terrible for him and team USA. But, you can blame Downey. I'm sure he'd love to wrestle a one legged Taylor. It's the only way he could win.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

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DT debacle puts emphasis on shortcomings of the Final X format. Saylor has an interesting idea--each bracket comprises 8 persons, each match-up contested best of three--which I think would be even better if the bracket were to include the Final X bye recipient.

My opinion: Latest iteration of qualifying sequence--first Nationals then Trials then Final X--is way too drawn out. It's difficult to keep track of which stakes apply to which preliminary event (e.g., U.S. Open winner gets bye to Final X? Gets bye to WTT?) and it's downright tiring to keep track of coverage/happenings throughout the entire multi-month proceeding! It's all the more confusing because tourney stakes differ from one weight class to another (which will be the case so long as Team U.S.A. wrestlers win medals in some--but not all--weight classes).

I like Willie's idea so long as the 'favored' person competes in WTT alongside other entrants. Everything best-of-three would be way more fan friendly than is the current format.

Oh and just to be clear: It's not the case that Saylor proposes World Team Trials goes best-of-three everything. He wrote a tweet along the line of "If I had my way it'd be [smaller brackets] and [best of three]" -- i.e., he was spitballing, thinking aloud. I don't mean for my post here to misrepresent what he wrote. 

Edited by jon

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14 minutes ago, NJDan said:

You make some good points, but Nickal and Dieringer did not lose. Isn't the point to send the best team?  The USA gave DT a bye with the idea that anyone else must beat DT to earn the spot. But no one beat DT. So the question is what to do now. I am not sure making the WTT winner beat someone else at Final X violates the ethic of the sport. Put another way, one can say that PD did not so anything more to earn a spot than other WTT winners (who go on to lose Final X) so he is no more worthy than they are.

The only reason they would be wrestling off is if they lose at final x at the weight they already chose. Pat Downey did significantly more towards winning the 86 kg spot than other WTT winners by actually wrestling 86 kg. Also, USA did not give DT a bye. He earned it through pre-set criteria (like the one you're arguing against right now). Remove DT from the field and there's nobody sitting in final x. Downey wins the open. Heflin wins the trials, Downey beats him at final x. What you are arguing for is either the ability to lose a tournament (the trials process in this case) and then reenter that same tournament at a different weight you might think you can win at for a second chance or the ability to change weights in the middle of a tournament because you found out the competition was easier at a different weight. Nonsense either way.

We have a trials process for a reason: transparency and fairness. If the point is only to send the best team, we might as well just have the coaches pick whoever they think matches up best internationally or who has the best results. 

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4 minutes ago, jon said:

DT debacle puts emphasis on shortcomings of the Final X format. Saylor has an interesting idea--each bracket comprises 8 persons, each match-up contested best of three--which I think would be even better if the bracket were to include the Final X bye recipient.

My opinion: Latest iteration of qualifying sequence--first Nationals then Trials then Final X--is way too drawn out. It's difficult to keep track of which stakes apply to which preliminary event (e.g., U.S. Open winner gets bye to Final X? Gets bye to WTT?) and it's downright tiring to keep track of coverage/happenings throughout the entire multi-month proceeding! It's all the more confusing because tourney stakes differ from one weight class to another (which will be the case so long as Team U.S.A. wrestlers win medals in some--but not all--weight classes).

I like Willie's idea so long as the 'favored' person competes in WTT alongside other entrants. Everything best-of-three would be way more fan friendly than is the current format.

Wait, what? Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but an 8 man bracket with best of 3 for the whole tournament? This means you could potentially have to wrestle 9 times over the course of a single day (or 2 days). That's idiotic. How is that more fan friendly? Wrestling tournaments are already ungodly long. Let's multiply that by a factor of at least 2! Not to mention the toll it would take on the athletes.

Also, how on Earth does that relate to the DT situation in any way? The whole complaint stems from the fact that people don't feel like Downey is the best guy we could send at 86 kg. This idea does absolutely nothing to address that complaint because the situation is identical if DT wins your trials and then gets hurt after. Downey still goes as the second place finisher.

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

To me it would be appropriate to say that Downey did not win Final X so he did not win a spot at the Worlds.  Why not re-open the competition and let Downey wrestle off against Bo Nickal or Dieringer or any of the runners up at the surrounding weights?

By this token, Myles Martin did not win Big Tens as he did not wrestle in the Big Ten finals, since Rasheed defaulted. Does that mean the third place finished should've been given the opportunity to wrestle in the finals?

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8 minutes ago, headshuck said:

Tayler has some history losing important matches, or not winning his share in a so-called rivalry. He may have been the favorite on paper, but Downey very well could have beaten him.

Dake was never going to get a fantasy win over, DT, so there's no chance Downey would. So until Downey actually beats Taylor, there is a 0% chance he can win that match. And if he does beat Taylor... then we can probably move that to a 1% chance.

Edited by Molsen

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2 hours ago, qc8223 said:

You can't change weights mid-process because you lose and think you might be able to beat the guy at a weight next to yours. Downey won the 86 kg spot by winning the US Open and then the trials, and now final x where he will essentially accept 2 forfeits from DT. It's against the ethic of the sport and would set up potentially disastrous situations down the road if they were to allow Nickal or Ringer to wrestle off Downey despite neither of them ever wrestling 86 kg. You'd have guys asking for special wrestle offs every year. The only reason people are having this conversation is because Downey rubs people the wrong way. It's not like he's some scrub. He's a junior world silver medalist, has a great freestyle skillset, and is an amazing athlete. I think we're going to be fine there this year. He's not a bad second option behind DT. 

That's about the best summary explanation I've heard. When you have a defending world champion who was voted pound-for-pound #1 in the world, it wouldn't have mattered to whom he forfeited. People out there acting like Downey is some kind of scrub, but just look at his resume.  He's beaten several D1 national champions and countless AAs.  And, as you said, he was a junior world silver medalist. Also, I've spoken with a lot of D1 coaches who think he has the highest ceiling amongst our 86kg wrestlers and genuinely has the tools to be a world taker. Given the time to compete on the national team schedule and bang with international competition, I am confident that he'll rise to the challenge. Taylor had all summer to rehabilitate and could have postponed the Final X until the team left for the acclimation camp, but he chose not to do so. Downey EARNED his spot fair and square. Time to deal with it and root for him. 

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

Gifted.

Every other person who won the WTT Bo3 has to win another Bo3. As of now he is the only one locked in as our #1.

So? Is that an argument to change the process in the middle? I get that people are disappointed that DT can't go, but Downey has proven himself to be the best in the field at 86 kg this year. I don't think anybody argues that he avoided his biggest roadblock to making the team, but that's just the nature of professional sports. Were our '84 gold medalists "gifted" because the Soviets didn't compete? Come on now. All you can do is beat whoever they put in front of you.

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26 minutes ago, Blue Dragons said:

That's about the best summary explanation I've heard. When you have a defending world champion who was voted pound-for-pound #1 in the world, it wouldn't have mattered to whom he forfeited.  

Wait, what moron voted DT as p4p #1?

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3 hours ago, NJDan said:

To me it would be appropriate to say that Downey did not win Final X so he did not win a spot at the Worlds.  Why not re-open the competition and let Downey wrestle off against Bo Nickal or Dieringer or any of the runners up at the surrounding weights?

Why don't you stop insulting Nickal and Dieringer, two excellent wrestlers who I would guess are supremely confident that they will win their Final X series.  Ask them today if they would consider giving up their shots at making the team at 79kg and 92kg to change weights. I think I know what their answers would be.

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2 hours ago, headshuck said:

Tayler has some history losing important matches, or not winning his share in a so-called rivalry. He may have been the favorite on paper, but Downey very well could have beaten him.

Dream on.  Clowney would get tech-ed.  He may have improved some in recent months, but Taylor is a World Champion who has beaten many, many top ranked guys in his weight class and he hasn't lost in nearly two years.    

 

Edited by dmm53

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1 hour ago, qc8223 said:

So? Is that an argument to change the process in the middle? I get that people are disappointed that DT can't go, but Downey has proven himself to be the best in the field at 86 kg this year. I don't think anybody argues that he avoided his biggest roadblock to making the team, but that's just the nature of professional sports. Were our '84 gold medalists "gifted" because the Soviets didn't compete? Come on now. All you can do is beat whoever they put in front of you.

Uh yeah.

You've less intelligence than a quartz pebble if you think that the '84 medalists weren't gifted as a whole from the Soviet boycott.

You obviously need to look up the definition of what a gift is and then you need some schooling or educational comprehension to apply it to this scenario.

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1 hour ago, dmm53 said:

Dream on.  Clowney would get tech-ed.  He may have improved some in recent months, but Taylor is a World Champion who has beaten many, many top ranked guys in his weight class and he hasn't lost in nearly two years.    

 

The Downey in this match with Taylor wasn't even training in a room and had been off the mat for three months. To compare the present day Downey to this version from TWO YEARS AGO is absurd. Did you see how many points Heflin scored on Taylor vs Downey?  The present-day Downey would have given Taylor all he could handle.  BTW, here is what Kevin Jackson has to say about Downey's chances at worlds.

https://twitter.com/CoachKJ__/status/1132675092041719808

 

Edited by Blue Dragons

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4 hours ago, NJDan said:

To me it would be appropriate to say that Downey did not win Final X so he did not win a spot at the Worlds.  Why not re-open the competition and let Downey wrestle off against Bo Nickal or Dieringer or any of the runners up at the surrounding weights?

I must've missed it, who/when did Dieringer and Nickal lose to?  ;_;

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I think folks ought to lay of PD III - he played by the rules and they are about to install him as our guy at that weight - let's get behind him instead of dissing him in anticipation of his installation as our guy . Like many, I am not impressed with his previous antics, but that said, he will likely be our 84 kg guy at the Worlds - so let's stop dissing him and get behind him; he is a Cinderella story in the making and actually adds an additional story line to this year's event.

I am not impressed with Taylor's back-hand sleight nor am I impressed with forum posters openly looking to unseat PD III, assuming others from other weights are better candidates to be our 84 kg rep. PD III endured the process and has emerged as our guy - get behind him. Personally for me, his presence will add another level of interest to the event. Just hope he doesn't create an international incident...or maybe I do ; )

Lighten up and enjoy the ride, guys.

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