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Why is Downey being Given (or Gifted) the spot?

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

You know not all situations are equal. I am a firm believer we shouldn't just do things because thats the way its always been.

How is this any different?  USA wrestling didn't require Eggum to wrestle off with anyone else for the spot that year. Cael didn't want to go because worlds had been rescheduled due to 9/11 and interfered with his college season.  Eggum beat everybody else in front of him that he had to beat. I think Downey and by extension his dad are a bunch of lowlife garbage who you would see on COPS, but that doesn't mean that he should be replaced because we don't like the fact he's a narcissistic *******.  

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1 hour ago, JasonBryant said:

One last thing to interject on this. 

What if the theory russelscout wants to have is in place. Ringer, Zahid and Nickal come up/down to challenge for the spot.

So then what happens if Dake gets hurt and Ringer/Zahid are bulking up for a shot at 86? Or what if Cox gets hurt after Nickal makes a cut down? So then what? you've screwed your #2's at +1 weights, further weakening your team's prospectus all because you don't like who has the spot. We've seen time and time again it takes a long time for someone to get adjusted to a new weight after moving weights during competition phases. Months. Guys just don't pack on legitimate weight or cut down successfully on a whim. 

What we have is a progression 1-2-3 on the ladder and that's fine by basically 97% of the wrestling population ... in this country. 

Lol

What if every person who competed at WTT got hurt? So then what????

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16 minutes ago, TripNSweep said:

I think Downey and by extension his dad are a bunch of lowlife garbage who you would see on COPS, but that doesn't mean that he should be replaced because we don't like the fact he's a narcissistic *******.  

I am on my train heading home and just turned a few heads guffawing at your post, because it made me think about the extent to which people taking the same position as you and I have taken have been forced to stand up for what we don't like. It's like we all were forced to join the ACLU or something.  

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After knowing of his previous antics, I am not the biggest Downey fan, but you can't give him a hard time.  He followed the process and did what he had to do to qualify.  Be irritated with USA Wrestling and their qualification process.

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2 hours ago, LJB said:

we have the best system...

it is based on merit...

it has worked in the past and it has worked this year...

the only reason people don't like it is that they are unhappy with the results... that is it... nothing more...

whiny, silly people who can not accept the results...

anyone who would choose any more subjective approach over a more objective approach should be laughed at and ridiculed because they clearly have an agenda...

 

this sounds vaguely familiar... where else have we seen this  

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

How many world titles do we have compared to Russia? They are extremely subjective and I don't want it to that extent, but their success alone should speak to the legitimacy of having some degree of subjective criteria.

russia would also have vast paperwork on the results and side effects of creatine use had they also not been using steroids et al at the same time

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

How common would that be? It may happen this year, but how common? Have the coach step up and choose those spots. It is POSSIBLE that it could work out like you said, but it is also possible that it would be effective. This appeal to consequences only focusses on negative. What if we replaced Downey with Bo and he won a medal and everything else was fine? See what I did there?

then DT would have to compete at the open and wtt and nickal would be able to sit.

hmmm

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2 hours ago, ConnorsDad said:

Because they're whining ****ing babies and their guy didn't get on the team or they don't like Downey. If it was somebody other than him not a single person would be saying anything. It would be "Let's get behind (insert name) and hope he does well." There are rules already in place if the guy can't compete at final X. It goes to the other guy. That's it. Period. If you don't like the process then go through the proper channels to change it but not in mid-****ing stream.

Can you imagine if we had this we will take whoever looks better at trial camp plan? How many times would that have happened in the past and somebody screamed bloody murder? Ridiculous! You win the spot you compete. Can you imagine the screaming if a Penn State wrestler won Final X and Bill Zadik took an Iowa wrestler because he looked better at trials camp? And bringing somebody from another weight is also asinine.

One thing I don't like about the situation is Taylor waiting till after the trials to inform USA Wrestling he wasn't going to compete. If he's having surgery he certainly knew before the trials. You would think Bo Nickal would have known but maybe not. But if you were Taylor would you rather have to beat Downey in the best two out of three after winning the Olympic Trials Tourney or possibly Nickall or Ringer? 

Think about this. If we didn't have final X and Taylor was waiting in the final of the world trials and then when Downey got there if all of a sudden Taylor couldn't compete for some reason nobody would even be bringing this up. But because there's another tournament and they don't like the guy they want to try to screw him out of his spot that he rightfully earned. And it's not just fans. Haley Augelo tweeted "Call me stupid but he should have to wrestle someone at Final X." Then, when she was called stupid by many people, she started back tracking saying that she just meant he should have the experience of wrestling at FX. What? Who believes that ****? Who is he going to wrestle? Does anybody really think he would want to? What would happen if God forbid he actually lost? Just another ridiculous idea.

^^^^ this is spot on ^^^^^^^^^^

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

Its not all or nothing. You can have an objective criteria with the ability to bring in subjective criteria when necessary.

ask the 1980 russian hockey team about subjectivity

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

Its not all or nothing. You can have an objective criteria with the ability to bring in subjective criteria when necessary.

Not right smack in the middle of the game, no you definitely cannot if you believe in right and wrong. And no I don’t believe you can make a rule that says, if we get all the way to the finals, and one of the competitors can’t compete, then we’ll just wait and see what the results of the other finals are and open open up the finals for that one particular weight again. If you want subjectivity to play into a system of selecting our national team, then go to one of those countries where bribes and back door politics play a part in selecting our national team. Not in this country. Again, this is bigger than fan opinion or maneuvering and shuffling to put out what some people, SOME people, may think be our best possible national team. I’d rather, along with the majority, would rather deal in right and wrong, make our own personal decisions and do the best we can with those decisions, and live with the results. How many high level athletes and coaches talk about it’s not in the results as much as it’s in the process we undertake?? You start taking away from leaving it in the hands of the people battling on the mat....god help us all. 

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1 hour ago, LJB said:

plus, you have to add in the element of money and the ever present corruption that follows that money in other countries in regards to wrestling...

this country has very little financial incentives built into wrestling, which, removes the reason for corruption to influence a selection process... no money then no reason to modify the results for personal gain...

this is not the case in many other global wrestling countries...

after yanni won one of his cadet golds, he was asked by a foreign wrestler how much he would get paid for his results... that kid was shocked to learn that yanni would receive nothing and had to in fact pay for his own way just to compete... 

many of these clubs in other countries get large sums of money based off of results on the world stage... and not just the senior level... that is why their is a "window" on BC dates for quite a few age level wrestlers... their individual cultures do not seem the shame in this that many of us here in the US do based on the realities of their situations...

i would hate for USA wrestling to devolve into that type of organization (some might argue it has)... i applaud any wrestler in this country who has made any world team because i always have faith they earned it through fair competition... anyone who would have that changed should have their pants ran up the flag pole...

also explains some of the crap that goes on in world/olympic tourneys

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

You are correct, Ser.

What does ignoring the real likelihood that Downey at 86 rather than the loser if the 92 and/or 79 Bo3 costs us a real shot at a world title make you and your sympathizers? 

Communists?

Nah. I don't actually believe that, even though it makes as much sense as ignorance.

you know for sure that one of those could medal? what would make you think this?

you are making assumptions as much as russel claims any of us are

 

speaking of communists... 

a guy did all he was told he needed to do. worked by day and toiled by night, gave up play and some delight. dry books he read, new things to learn and forged ahead, success to earn. 

he toiled on with faith and pluck and when he won men called it luck. and said he had to wrestle again.

doesn't sound like the american way.

Edited by GockeS

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1 hour ago, nhs67 said:

You are correct, Ser.

What does ignoring the real likelihood that Downey at 86 rather than the loser if the 92 and/or 79 Bo3 costs us a real shot at a world title make you and your sympathizers? 

Communists?

Nah. I don't actually believe that, even though it makes as much sense as ignorance.

You know Russia hasn't been Communist since the early 90's right?

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2 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

You know Russia hasn't been Communist since the early 90's right?

Why would you assume I was referencing Russia or any specific country? I was referencing a political party.

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15 minutes ago, GockeS said:

you know for sure that one of those could medal? what would make you think this?

you are making assumptions as much as russel claims any of us are

 

speaking of communists... 

a guy did all he was told he needed to do. worked by day and toiled by night, gave up play and some delight. dry books he read, new things to learn and forged ahead, success to earn. 

he toiled on with faith and pluck and when he won men called it luck. and said he had to wrestle again.

doesn't sound like the american way.

I never said I assumed Bo or Ringer would medal. Or Dake or Cox for that matter.

The results, both international and domestic, point to him going 0-4 in a round robin between him and those four.

I want USA to win. Period. Because thenithers have shown better potential and promise in pretty much every aspect of freestyle wrestling the last 1-5 years I can say with confidence I would rather him prove me wrong against said challengers.

He is gifted. Period. Gifted that not only is Taylor not able to wrestle Final X but that he waited until after the Trials to announce it. Had Taylor not waited we would have seen an influx of some of the top 174lbers as well as a 202lber or three

If this were done like a proper team, anyone on the team(top 3 through the ranking series) at any weight should be able to properly challenge him for the right to start, via ladder ranking series over the next several months. Himself obviously being the top of the ladder right now due to being our #1 actual 189lber.

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

How many world titles do we have compared to Russia? They are extremely subjective and I don't want it to that extent, but their success alone should speak to the legitimacy of having some degree of subjective criteria.

If you think Russia’s success is because of their selection process more so than their incredibly deep roster of athletes, many of whom train the discipline solely (with a little of the other Olympic style mixed in) because for them it is truly the only way out of a povershed life, and as a result are so deep that often their #3 and # 4 are among the top ten in the world historically, then I don’t know what to tell you. Lebedev made Rio purely through politics and bribery (subjectivity sinks in). How’d that work?  They are dominant because of their depth, not because of their selection process. Right over wrong is better. Pure and simple. Anything but Downey wrestling in KAZ is wrong. 

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

If you think Russia’s success is because of their selection process more so than their incredibly deep roster of athletes, many of whom train the discipline solely (with a little of the other Olympic style mixed in) because for them it is truly the only way out of a povershed life, and as a result are so deep that often their #3 and # 4 are among the top ten in the world historically, then I don’t know what to tell you. Lebedev made Rio purely through politics and bribery (subjectivity sinks in). How’d that work?  They are dominant because of their depth, not because of their selection process. Right over wrong is better. Pure and simple. Anything but Downey wrestling in KAZ is wrong. 

The only thing wrong is your post saying everything else is wrong.

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2 minutes ago, spladle said:

Ok it is Downey's spot. I predict he goes 0-1.

If he doesn't have some sort of psychological breakdown from his dad reading this thread before he makes it to the mat.

Otherwise it is probably going to be Chandler Roger's representing us.

Imagine him bringing home a silver. Hahahahaha

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15 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

 

He is gifted. Period. Gifted that not only is Taylor not able to wrestle Final X but that he waited until after the Trials to announce it. Had Taylor not waited we would have seen an influx of some of the top 174lbers as well as a 202lber or three

im not so sure about this. not enough time.

15 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

If this were done like a proper team, anyone on the team(top 3 through the ranking series) at any weight should be able to properly challenge him for the right to start, via ladder ranking series over the next several months. Himself obviously being the top of the ladder right now due to being our #1 actual 189lber.

no. those aren't the rules. haven't been for years b/c of politics.

 

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23 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

Why would you assume I was referencing Russia or any specific country? I was referencing a political party.

Ok, in what way is allowing the wrestler who earned the spot by competing in and winning the trials process communist?

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