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NJDan

Why is Downey being Given (or Gifted) the spot?

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2 hours ago, nhs67 said:

I don't think Cox could make 86 even in a month and compete as high as he should.

Dake is the only one who would deserve a go.

FTR any of the top 4 79 beat Downey right now. Hall, Ringer, Zahid, Dake... the lot. We'll see at least two of them prove their worth next year in Zahid and Ringer. I believe Hall goes down as well as Dake.

Then at least a few folk will be like "Man. Not letting <insert Dake/Ringer loser> go Curbstomp-Fu on Downey after he lost his Bo3 to <insert Dake/Ringer winner> cost us a team world title. Damn I am stupid to not have been okay with it."

So keep being a bunch of fairy-folk and citing the most corrupt selection process we ever had. This isn't about corruption or favoritism. It is about winning a team world title. We won't do that with Downey as our rep going 1 and done. Or worse getting DQd for doing Downey things(this won't happen I don't think).

Obviously this is all hypothetical politix, but the legitimacy of those involved have more merit and hardware, or at the very least much more international success/experience recently.

I don't see how Hall wins a FS match against Downey.  He doesn't have his own offense and he is giving up so much size I can't see him winning a no TD pushing contest.  Ringer is a huge 79 and would have a great chance.  Dake is Dake and could do it.  Valencia would be interesting.  It's tough to shoot long range doubles against bigger men, but he does have a great one.  

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On 5/26/2019 at 2:03 PM, qc8223 said:

Downey won the 86 kg spot by winning the US Open and then the trials, and now final x where he will essentially accept 2 forfeits from DT. 

He's not a bad second option behind DT. 

Agreed on both of your points here.

People just dont like him and cant accept he's the second best guy at the weight right now. It's silly. 

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So lets say when they get to practice at the OTC there are a number of guys who take PD down all day- Derringer,  Nickal, Dake, Cox (I think hes too big), that can slide into the weight.  You believe at the highest level of our sport the coaching staff has to be nice guys and cannot make changes based on who wins every day in practice.  Can you imagine  Bill Belichick telling his team...  "Yeah, I know he is better than the starter, but he tried out for guard, not tackle.  Therefore he rides the bench.  Too bad so sad." 

What if Alex D. finds a way to beat Dake?  He looked awful good against Valencia.   I wonder how many here would change their tune and advocate taking KD instead of PD?

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It's weird that we have so many serious posts suggesting destroying the integrity of the qualification process. 

Downey won the Open and the Trials and was prepared to wrestle his opponent in Final X, which he fully believed he would win but didn't get the chance to do so.

It defeats the purpose of objective processes and rules if we can junk them because we subjectively don't like that it has produced a guy whose behavior has been consistently troubling, and who has weaker credentials than the other Final X participants -- particularly what will inevitably be at least one very impressive guy at an adjacent weight who could have made 86 kg but won't qualify at the weight he chose.

Suggesting that not letting Downey have the spot is a viable position, and a possibility worth taking seriously, is counterproductive if you are appalled by Downey's past conduct -- the contemplated ousting of him from the team is so plainly unfair and indefensible that it makes a guy who has himself repeatedly been accused of unfair statements and indefensible conduct into a martyr. 

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With a sport like wrestling, there will always be situations where people want a case by case approach. Final X originated from people saying it wasn't fair that a guy could sit the whole day and then wrestle two matches fresh. US Open winners started to get a bye to Final X if they won and the weight wasn't occupied by a previous world medalists. IMO the process changes too much. I think it should go back to being the trials is how you qualify, take away Final X and take away the bye to the finals. I know it is for more reasons then just the bye with some guys but it isn't good for our sport to only see some of our best guys wrestle 2 matches on US Soil, maybe 3 with BTS.

Edited by gopher_fan_90

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Side note:  the Russians would not automatically take Downey to Worlds.  They would evaluate him at training camp and possibly hold additional matches to evaluate him.  Why?  Because nobody behind Taylor has any significant Senior level results.  If he's at camp and getting his ass handed to him, no way they bring him; if he dominates at camp and handles any prospective challenges (Dieringer, Nickal, et al.), he's in.  For us, though, a giant court battle would erupt (a la Lewboo/Leroy, Green/Marable).

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If Taylor is out does that make the national team 1) Downey, 2) Heflin, 3) Brooks?  Or is it 1) Downey, 2) Taylor, 3) Heflin?  Or is it 1) Downey, 2) Heflin 3) winner of a special wrestle off between Brooks and Martin?

 

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I think people are confusing what process is best with what is the best way to pick a team in this instance. I am not familiar with the current rules. But if the rules provide that a Final X entrant gets the spot if the the other Final X entrant is incapacitated by injury, then the rules should be followed. But if the rules allow for flexibility when one Final X entrant is injured-- so no one wins Final X-- then it would make sense to consider which wrestler give the U.S. the best chance at a medal. Here, it seems that the U.S. would have a few guys who also will not have won Final X (Dieringer, Dake, Nickal, Valencia or Cox) who might be able to make the weight, beat Downey and give the U.S. a better team. Downey could not say he beat these guys already because he did not.

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5 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I think people are confusing what process is best with what is the best way to pick a team in this instance. I am not familiar with the current rules. But if the rules provide that a Final X entrant gets the spot if the the other Final X entrant is incapacitated by injury, then the rules should be followed. But if the rules allow for flexibility when one Final X entrant is injured-- so no one wins Final X-- then it would make sense to consider which wrestler give the U.S. the best chance at a medal. Here, it seems that the U.S. would have a few guys who also will not have won Final X (Dieringer, Dake, Nickal, Valencia or Cox) who might be able to make the weight, beat Downey and give the U.S. a better team. Downey could not say he beat these guys already because he did not.

The best way is to prepare Downey for worlds. 

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

Why would it be so bad to integrate a lil bit of subjective reasoning to the process? 

who is the one we trust to be subjective?

 

have you read the stories in 'wrestlers at the trials?"

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

Side note:  the Russians would not automatically take Downey to Worlds.  They would evaluate him at training camp and possibly hold additional matches to evaluate him.  Why?  Because nobody behind Taylor has any significant Senior level results.  If he's at camp and getting his ass handed to him, no way they bring him; if he dominates at camp and handles any prospective challenges (Dieringer, Nickal, et al.), he's in.  For us, though, a giant court battle would erupt (a la Lewboo/Leroy, Green/Marable).

i agree. however, who do you trust making the decision?

who do you trust the next time it's someone you like, ...?

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4 minutes ago, GockeS said:

who is the one we trust to be subjective?

 

have you read the stories in 'wrestlers at the trials?"

Allow a wrestle off at the OTC. This is a unique situation. I wouldn't expect it every year, but if a Bo Nickel can make the weight, let him wrestle off Downey. Would there be more people that would want to step up to challenge Downey? Probably, but we should use our best judgment in choosing people who get a shot. Zadick should be the guy. I did not read the stories you referencing, but really when it comes down to it I want the best team to go to worlds. 

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The process on selecting World Teams is just odd in the US. I always wondered why they don't have the coaches for the senior team consult with advisors (a group of 3-5 past world champions/world coaches; examples: John Smith, Zeke, Gable, Brands, etc..) on who should be on the team. Take them to a team camp and let them wrestle multiple times over multiple weeks. Anything can happen 1 day. I don't believe a 1 day tournament/event really allows us to evaluate the best wrestler. You may have some guys who are butt hurt about it, but you ultimately have 6-10 coaches/consultants who would be evaluating talent, matches, health, etc..I don't believe whoever is the Head Coach should pick who's on the team, too much bias can creep in. But, I believe a group of 6-10 past world champs/world coaches would be the best people to evaluate talent over months. Basically I just want a larger sample size. 

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ugh... this gets so tiresome every year... my guy didn't get on the team so there must be a change in the way we do it...

f all that...

the US has the best system to determine world team members... totally merit based... you win you are on the team... proper allowances given to past accomplishments...

everyone knows the dates... everyone knows the process (excepting some "fans")... you show up and you earn your spot or you do not... it is that simple... no ifs ands or buts... no politics... no one trying to get their guy on the team using some silly practice room goes as a factor...

you show and win and you are on the team...

how anyone can have a problem with this is beyond me... 

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45 minutes ago, MrDream said:

The process on selecting World Teams is just odd in the US. I always wondered why they don't have the coaches for the senior team consult with advisors (a group of 3-5 past world champions/world coaches; examples: John Smith, Zeke, Gable, Brands, etc..) on who should be on the team. Take them to a team camp and let them wrestle multiple times over multiple weeks. Anything can happen 1 day. I don't believe a 1 day tournament/event really allows us to evaluate the best wrestler. You may have some guys who are butt hurt about it, but you ultimately have 6-10 coaches/consultants who would be evaluating talent, matches, health, etc..I don't believe whoever is the Head Coach should pick who's on the team, too much bias can creep in. But, I believe a group of 6-10 past world champs/world coaches would be the best people to evaluate talent over months. Basically I just want a larger sample size. 

i dont disagree completely. but after reading about the politics that went on in the past...(dont kid yourself, it would happen today as well)

I think what we have now is better.

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10 hours ago, matts1w said:

So lets say when they get to practice at the OTC there are a number of guys who take PD down all day- Derringer,  Nickal, Dake, Cox (I think hes too big), that can slide into the weight.  You believe at the highest level of our sport the coaching staff has to be nice guys and cannot make changes based on who wins every day in practice.  Can you imagine  Bill Belichick telling his team...  "Yeah, I know he is better than the starter, but he tried out for guard, not tackle.  Therefore he rides the bench.  Too bad so sad." 

What if Alex D. finds a way to beat Dake?  He looked awful good against Valencia.   I wonder how many here would change their tune and advocate taking KD instead of PD?

Those guys had a chance to take the 86 kg spot by wrestling 86 kg. Beating somebody in practice means nothing. This wasn't a discussion last year when Garrett went down and we had a junior world champ on the bench at 57 kg if Fix, and it shouldn't have been. We have an objective qualifying process to prevent political maneuvering to get guys on the team like we see frequently in Russia (the Lebedev situation comes to mind). If you think that could only happen in Russia, you're naive. Our process works and we shouldn't abandon it. Nobody should feel robbed by this process.

If you're going to be mad at anybody, be mad at David Taylor and his camp, who by all accounts knew he wasn't able to go before trials and didn't tell anybody. That would have given guys like Ringer or Zahid a chance to switch weights for trials (Bo knew and chose not to, probably because his plan is to go 97 kg next year).

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