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Why is Downey being Given (or Gifted) the spot?

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12 minutes ago, russelscout said:

How common would that be? It may happen this year, but how common? Have the coach step up and choose those spots. It is POSSIBLE that it could work out like you said, but it is also possible that it would be effective. This appeal to consequences only focusses on negative. What if we replaced Downey with Bo and he won a medal and everything else was fine? See what I did there?

Probably a higher likelihood of my scenario happening than yours. See what I did there?

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2 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Then, when she was called stupid by many people, she started back tracking saying that she just meant he should have the experience of wrestling at FX. What? Who believes that ****? Who is he going to wrestle? Does anybody really think he would want to? What would happen if God forbid he actually lost? Just another ridiculous idea.

Come on. Nobody ever gets hurt during exhibition matches. She has a point....

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With all the brutal matches that he wrestled this year to qualify for Final X,  I wouldn't exactly call it a gift.  I picture a gift as something pleasant and nice.  His matches looked anything but that.

 

ps.  I also seem to remember(I think after the trials) him saying he had never won a period of DT and he had alot of work ahead of him.  Nothing cocky about that.

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Just now, russelscout said:

Then why do they do it? Do you believe every single time they have made changes to the team its political?

write a letter and ask...

personally, i do not care why they do it that way... their philosophy on wrestling (and many other things) is much different than ours... 

as far as the competitive realm, merit based rewards are the only honorable rewards... if you can not get behind that, then i reserve to right to ridicule you...

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

It doesn't prove your point. There was no outcry because most don't even pay attention to greco. That seems relevant when talking about public response. 

So we shouldn’t base the process on earning the right to be there. We should not have a process where one has to decide what weight class they are going to compete and then win their way into a position on the team. We should base our process on public perception. 

No thanks. I. DO NOT LIKE Downey. But anything other than Downey being on the team at this point is unacceptable. This is bigger than my opinion of a guy, and it’s bigger than fan boys thinking we’re better off having guys cut down to a weight we don’t even know they can make effectively, except for a few of the keyboard experts around here that appear to know everything about everyone, and it’s bigger than the best team forward crowd. This is about right and wrong. This is about winning and earning. Downey won and earned his way to the finals. His finals opponent can’t go. Downey is going to world, rightfully so. End of story. 

Edited by Lurker

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2 minutes ago, LJB said:

write a letter and ask...

personally, i do not care why they do it that way... their philosophy on wrestling (and many other things) is much different than ours... 

as far as the competitive realm, merit based rewards are the only honorable rewards... if you can not get behind that, then i reserve to right to ridicule you...

Of course you don't care. It doesn't fit your narrative. Continue with the ridiculing.

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Yep, that has to be it. Anyone who doesn't agree with you guys=babies.

Obviously I was being facetious about the babies. And it has nothing to do with agreeing with me. It has to do with taking the current rules in place and wanting them to be disregarded because you didn't like the result for whatever the reason. It doesn't matter if it's Pat Downey,  Kyle Snyder or Scooby Do. You want to change them, I'm all behind it. You don't change them in mid-stream for any reason.

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3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So we shouldn’t base the process on earning the right to be there. We should not have a process where one has to decide what weight class they are going to compete and then win their way into a position on the team. We should base our process on public perception. 

No thanks. I. DO NOT LIKE Downey. But anything other than Downey being on the team at this point is unacceptable. This is bigger than my opinion of a guy, and it’s bigger than fan boys thinking we’re better off having guys cut down to a weight we don’t even know they can make effectively, except for a few of the keyboard experts around here that appear to know everything about everyone, and it’s bigger than the best team forward crowd. This is about right and wrong. This is about winning and earning. Downey won and earned his way to the finals. His finals opponent can’t go. Downey is going to world, rightfully so. End of story. 

Its not all or nothing. You can have an objective criteria with the ability to bring in subjective criteria when necessary.

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3 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Obviously I was being facetious about the babies. And it has nothing to do with agreeing with me. It has to do with taking the current rules in place and wanting them to be disregarded because you didn't like the result for whatever the reason. It doesn't matter if it's Pat Downey,  Kyle Snyder or Scooby Do. You want to change them, I'm all behind it. You don't change them in mid-stream for any reason.

Ok, Im a baby because I think should be a change in the rules? Why does that make me a baby? I also don't care if its Pat Downey, Kyle Snyder or Scooby Do. I just want the best team possible. I think there should be further consideration regarding this weight... do I think there will be? Not at all. 

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Of course you don't care. It doesn't fit your narrative. Continue with the ridiculing.

my narrative is that the wrestler who goes through the process and earns his spot based on merit deserves to represent the US...

you narrative is the one who matches his socks and shoes more aesthetically pleasing to your eye should represent the US...

it's pretty silly when you break it down to the nuts and bolts...

the best wrestler we have in this country at 86kg is representing us as proven by him beating everyone that showed up to wrestle...

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1 minute ago, russelscout said:

Ok, Im a baby because I think should be a change in the rules? Why does that make me a baby? I also don't care if its Pat Downey, Kyle Snyder or Scooby Do. I just want the best team possible. I think there should be further consideration regarding this weight... do I think there will be? Not at all. 

we will put forth our best team possible as proven by competition results... not by whim or fancy...

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If Bo Nickal had gotten hurt in the final of the Big Ten's, should he have gotten to wrestle the winner of the Ncaa's at 197? Of course not because the rules are in place ahead of time. Trying to change them during the competition or after the fact is -----, any number of adjectives that could be considered name-calling. It just is! There's no other way to look at it. You want to change it for next year that's a different story and you might have enough people who want to do it. But to actually really want to change it now is ridiculous. That's not calling you ridiculous whoever-you-are, or saying your wife is ridiculous or your kid. It's calling your opinion on this matter ridiculous. I can't believe it's taken almost 10 pages and people actually are posting that they think it would be okay to change it right now. Even if the president of USA Wrestling was a complete moron it would never even get out of court because the court would look at the rules in place and toss it right back out.

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Just now, ConnorsDad said:

If Bo Nickal had gotten hurt in the final of the Big Ten's, should he have gotten to wrestle the winner of the Ncaa's at 197? Of course not because the rules are in place ahead of time. Trying to change them during the competition or after the fact is -----, any number of adjectives that could be considered name-calling. It just is! There's no other way to look at it. You want to change it for next year that's a different story and you might have enough people who want to do it. But to actually really want to change it now is ridiculous. That's not calling you ridiculous whoever-you-are, or saying your wife is ridiculous or your kid. It's calling your opinion on this matter ridiculous. I can't believe it's taken almost 10 pages and people actually are posting that they think it would be okay to change it right now. Even if the president of USA Wrestling was a complete moron it would never even get out of court because the court would look at the rules in place and toss it right back out.

I wish the rules were in place now. I understand why will not see it this year.

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9 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Then why do they do it? Do you believe every single time they have made changes to the team its political?

With respect to the U.S. and 2019 86 kg:

Doing anything other than have Downey be the representative would violate the rules and isn't really worthy of serious discussion, for many reasons covered by many posters.  

With respect to whether the U.S. qualification system in the future should include a subjective element:

This is a more legitimate topic of serious debate where reasonable minds can differ.

My personal view is that I don't think there should be a subjective element.  Basing the choice on qualifying tournaments on the mat seems the most likely way to pick the best candidate, and to be the fairest method which produces the most legitimacy and confidence in the system.

I don't know exactly how the Russian system works.  I don't know the history behind it.  And I certainly don't have enough information to conclude that their system is the reason why they are generally the most successful country at world competitions.  I suspect that the real reason is that they have historically had the best and deepest group of freestyle wrestlers.

I also want to make an egghead academic point.  The U.S. and Russia have much, much different histories and norms with respect to rules-based systems.  The U.S., while its governmental and non-governmental systems are far from perfect in implementation, has well-established mores around constructing objective systems constructed around merit-based rules, as documented from the time of Alexis de Tocqueville.  Russia has famously and sadly struggled to build a credible constitutional state since the fall of communism with the most basic functions like tax collection not seen as credible. 

Setting up a subjective system in Russia will not lead to the same type of knee-jerk objections that would be expected in the U.S.  For better or worse, a subjective system is a better fit in Russia than it is here.  I'm not saying that every change to the team in Russia is political, I have no knowledge or basis for suggesting that, and I do agree that their results are very strong.  But what I am saying is that the expectations of the wrestlers, the administrators of the system, the fans, and the press in the U.S. would be far more jolted by a subjective system than they would be in Russia.  

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59 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

The point system is fine. The problem is very few of the top wrestlers compete enough to overcome a lot of the points that some less than elite wrestlers get by competing more often. That's on them.

No. Not true. How widespread are the point allocation tournaments as far as geography goes?

I would be willing to wager that Erdin, who IS still elite(just a tier or two below DT, Yaz, whoever Russia sends), is closer nominally to these tourneys than anyone in the Western hemisphere.

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plus, you have to add in the element of money and the ever present corruption that follows that money in other countries in regards to wrestling...

this country has very little financial incentives built into wrestling, which, removes the reason for corruption to influence a selection process... no money then no reason to modify the results for personal gain...

this is not the case in many other global wrestling countries...

after yanni won one of his cadet golds, he was asked by a foreign wrestler how much he would get paid for his results... that kid was shocked to learn that yanni would receive nothing and had to in fact pay for his own way just to compete... 

many of these clubs in other countries get large sums of money based off of results on the world stage... and not just the senior level... that is why their is a "window" on BC dates for quite a few age level wrestlers... their individual cultures do not seem the shame in this that many of us here in the US do based on the realities of their situations...

i would hate for USA wrestling to devolve into that type of organization (some might argue it has)... i applaud any wrestler in this country who has made any world team because i always have faith they earned it through fair competition... anyone who would have that changed should have their pants ran up the flag pole...

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8 minutes ago, nhs67 said:

No. Not true. How widespread are the point allocation tournaments as far as geography goes?

I would be willing to wager that Erdin, who IS still elite(just a tier or two below DT, Yaz, whoever Russia sends), is closer nominally to these tourneys than anyone in the Western hemisphere.

I'm sure he is nominally closer and I don't think it has one thing to do with it. Every wrestler with an ability to get into the top four has the ability to get to these tournaments if they want to. They simply don't. Some will find it more to their liking to travel and some won't. I don't think the fact that Erdin who lives in Turkey is at any point ever one of the more important reasons for him not to go or to go. IMO

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Thats something you can all agree on. Don't like what someone says? Name call and assume bias to discredit everything they say!

I never once called you a name or made any sort of personal attack. The “wrestle off” crowd is acting like complete babies. That’s observational. It’s also correct. It’s also TIC.

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Just now, JasonBryant said:


I never once called you a name or made any sort of personal attack. The “wrestle off” crowd is acting like complete babies. That’s observational. It’s also correct.

You are correct, Ser.

What does ignoring the real likelihood that Downey at 86 rather than the loser if the 92 and/or 79 Bo3 costs us a real shot at a world title make you and your sympathizers? 

Communists?

Nah. I don't actually believe that, even though it makes as much sense as ignorance.

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4 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

I'm sure he is nominally closer and I don't think it has one thing to do with it. Every wrestler with an ability to get into the top four has the ability to get to these tournaments if they want to. They simply don't. Some will find it more to their liking to travel and some won't. I don't think the fact that Erdin who lives in Turkey is at any point ever one of the more important reasons for him not to go or to go. IMO

I disagree. Geography plays a huge factor. The US team doesn't travel every weekend for these things. Erdin is everywhere and loses a lot. Ignoring that geography may play a factor is silly.

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6 hours ago, GockeS said:

i agree. however, who do you trust making the decision?

who do you trust the next time it's someone you like, ...?

Different system, mindset, and philosophy.  Their coaches (like our pro coaches) are hired to make personnel decisions.  And when those decisions lead to something less than a world team title, they are fired.

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