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Jimmy Cinnabon

DeSanto - what is he missing?

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2 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Not true.  McDonough would do it all the time.  Hell, he would shoot from different zip codes and basically land on his belly.  He was just so good at pulling the legs in while fully extended that he was able to get away with it nearly all the time.  True shame that he ended his career with the shoulder injury.  It essentially took away the best part of his wrestling.

Same with Gilman actually on shooting from space. Also Cory Clark had several attacks from space.

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3 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Guys who wrestle from space are great at blocking off ties. Guys who wrestle from ties are great at closing the gap. Look at Lee. He is fantastic at closing the gap and getting from a tie to a shot. I think Desanto needs to learn to attack some new angles but I dont think he will ever really be a threat from space.

I don't really want them to be a true "threat" from space, just keep their opponents honest.  Even Lee had issues with Picc and Rivera because they were able to dictate much of the neutral wrestling.  I am not really asking so much for scoring from space as much as creating attacks and motion that can throw those wrestlers off their game and help them get to the ties without falling into the "plodding forward" trap or getting frustrated over time and forcing something.

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17 minutes ago, russelscout said:

Guys who wrestle from space are great at blocking off ties. Guys who wrestle from ties are great at closing the gap. Look at Lee. He is fantastic at closing the gap and getting from a tie to a shot. I think Desanto needs to learn to attack some new angles but I dont think he will ever really be a threat from space.

Agree. I think he just needs a reliable secondary attack to go to if he can't get to his tricep tie, so guys can't just sell out to defend that tie like RBY. He shouldn't change his style at all because that's what makes him so good. He just needs to add to his arsenal a bit. 

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20 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I don't really want them to be a true "threat" from space, just keep their opponents honest.  Even Lee had issues with Picc and Rivera because they were able to dictate much of the neutral wrestling.  I am not really asking so much for scoring from space as much as creating attacks and motion that can throw those wrestlers off their game and help them get to the ties without falling into the "plodding forward" trap or getting frustrated over time and forcing something.

I think Picc's length creates a lot of problems for guys at 125.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Lee does?  When exactly? In the 2018-2019 season?  I would bet significant funds that less than 10% of his takedowns against a NCAA qualifier were a result of his taking a shot from space(re-shots DO NOT count).

All I really remember from Wilcke are ducks and high crotches and his attack rate being quite low. Also, how much of the time does he spend in collar ties vs. wrestling from space.  He may have the ability to actually create offense from space, but would you consider it an attack that he uses over ANY other attack he uses?

I actually think DeSanto handfights exceptionally well, but inevitably transitions into that tie.  So, it is really his transition off the handfighting that is the issue.  Handfight directly into that single or to the opposite arm or even develop a high crotch to the opposite side.

After rewatching, he kind of does, but maybe not like you imagine. He'll hit a straight high crotch from no tie, but it comes right after he has disengaged from his opponent, using the second of relaxation by his opponent to dart in. He hit it on Oliver and Russell from memory. He's definitely more comfortable in a tie though.

Wilcke definitely attacks from space frequently. His attack rate isn't high, but he'll attempt his misdirection low single at least once a match. It was always the attack I expected him to go to when he needed a takedown. He also has a double from space he hits. He'll rope a dope along the edge of the mat and fire off his double as his opponent moves into him. He attempted about 10 of them in his quarter match with Dean. Wilcke actually doesn't wrestle from a collar tie as much as his teammates. He spends a lot of time using a thumb block and circling. He definitely wrestles from space the most of any hawkeye.

Turk shoots almost exclusively from space to the point it hurts him because if you get your hands on him, he can't score.

Murin also found some success shooting from space late in the year. That's how he beat Carr both times. Low double to single from space at big tens and a low single at NCAAs.

I think the bigger gripe you have is overall attack rate. Everybody on the team except Desanto, Marinelli, and Stoll showed some ability to get to legs from space last year. The hawks just weren't getting to legs much overall.

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To be clear, I am not calling for them to change their style, just add enough to keep opponents honest.

It is the same in nearly every other sport.  Take football.  If you run the ball exclusively, you will see 7 or more in the box all day long.   Sprinkle some passes in and maybe some play action and you force the defense to adapt.  On the flipside, if you pass exclusively, you will see a ton of nickel defense and some massive blitzes.  Just a few well timed runs either take big advantage of this or force them to adjust.

I just want to see them adapt, because, to me, the OkState dual was really, really bad.  Top to bottom Iowa looked thoroughly confused in that dual.  Even if it is just the hanging, monkey arms that Metcalf often employed outside of ties, show me something that calculatingly gets you to your offense from space without putting yourself at risk.

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Better defense is a non-starter.  That basically works for EVERYONE, including Suriano.  I think DeSanto's defense is solid enough that just a couple more attacks to go with his high pace would make him exceptionally hard to beat.  Like I said before, improvement against crab/leg rides to go with that offensive expansion would make him a complete wrestler and a true contender at the weight.

OK. So let's discard what works (for everyone, even) and let's give Desanto a couple more attacks (thereby effectively doubling or tripling his offensive arsenal), because that's so much easier. Good luck with that strategy for seasoned AA-level talent.

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3 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

OK. So let's discard what works (for everyone, even) and let's give Desanto a couple more attacks (thereby effectively doubling or tripling his offensive arsenal), because that's so much easier. Good luck with that strategy for seasoned AA-level talent.

Not what I meant.  But, adding more defense to his style basically demands he substantially adjust what works best for him, constant pressure and high pace.  I think his defense is solid enough that diversified attacks would help him more than backing off his pressure to work harder on defense.

Also, I am not asking for him to have 17 different attacks.  Just add 1 or 2 to the quite limited arsenal he has shown.  Many high level guys have shown the ability to add a lefty high crotch or an opposite side pass by.  You even see some working on picks or knee taps or sweep singles.  It is just simple common sense that you are 1 dimensional if nearly all your attacks are to the same side off the same tie.  I think every coach there exists in wrestling would be pushing for him to add a couple attacks, especially those to the opposite side!

Edited by MSU158

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Desanto is actually one of the guys I'm most excited to see this year after a full offseason in the Iowa room. I could definitely see him having a Gilman-like transformation. For those who don't remember young Gilman, he was basically a pure hand fighter and would wear guys down and get one or two takedowns a match against anybody with a pulse. In high school he scored most of his points from front headlock. He had almost no leg attacks. By his junior year at Iowa he was one of the best leg attackers in the country. He developed great head inside attacks to both sides and started putting up huge points (bonus rates of 83 and 78 his junior and senior year, 31 as a freshman). Beat Klimara in a tight 4-2 match as a freshman. 15-5 as a sophomore.

I could see Desanto really open up his offense now. He has a tenacity that can't be taught (like Gilman) and I think the technique and attacks are going to start coming better for him next year. He put up a ton of points last year even without the clean, crisp offense that I think he might be capable of. If you combine his pace and tenacity with higher efficiency he could be a terror next year.

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18 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Kemerer does it.  Cass will do it. Brands will do it.  Turk has a nice shot if he ever cracks the lineup again.  McDonough did it all the time.  Burak would shoot.  Brooks would shoot.  Sorensen would shoot.  Meyer would shoot.  Clark would shoot. St. John would shoot.  Dziewa would shoot.  Kelly actually shot a lot.  It isn't something new.

With that said, this past season was the most 1 dimensional I have EVER seen Iowa from neutral.  Top to bottom, the entire squad relied exclusively on collar ties.  Outside of Young and Warner, I don't remember a committed shot attempt from space from any other starter.

I've been seeing their 1 dimensional wrestling for quite some time now.

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37 minutes ago, Boompa said:

I've been seeing their 1 dimensional wrestling for quite some time now.

I would take a 1 dimensional wrestler over a master of none any day of the week. I see what you are saying, but I also think it's a little over stated if you are applying it to the whole team. Gilman does not have a large variety of attacks, but is extremely effective. Same could be said for some of the best wrestlers in this country.

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16 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Not true.  McDonough would do it all the time.  Hell, he would shoot from different zip codes and basically land on his belly.  He was just so good at pulling the legs in while fully extended that he was able to get away with it nearly all the time.  True shame that he ended his career with the shoulder injury.  It essentially took away the best part of his wrestling.

do you think wrestling that way contributed to the shoulder problems in first place? I don't know for sure in his case but that has to put a lot of torque on the shoulder. 

125s and shoulder injuries....there was a bad run there for a while of top guys in that class getting derailed by shoulder injuries.

 

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20 hours ago, MSU158 said:

100% of your offense can't be from collar ties.  I don't care how many attacks you have from the ties, you can't force the ties on everyone and guys with good offense from space are usually really good at blocking off ties.  If you can't score from that position, the faster guys are going to pick you off.  The more you try to drive into the ties, you are opening your legs up to attacks.  You have to be able to circle and create some type of leg attacks to throw them off balance.  A small, but significant enough dose of that will help you get back to your ties a lot quicker and with less risk.

PUSH PULL PUSH PULL!!!!!!!!!!!

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18 minutes ago, TobusRex said:

Surprised to see so much angst about collar ties in this thread. A guy can do a LOT of stuff from a collar tie, it's arguably the most offensive position you can take.

I absolutely agree.  I am not against the collar tie AT ALL.  I am just against getting to the point where it is the ONLY way you can generate offense.  To truly be ELITE, you HAVE TO be able to work from space as well.  There almost always are a couple guys in a weight class that have the speed and ability to wrestle from space.  If you can't, at the very least, efficiently close the gap on these guys, they are exceptionally hard to beat. 

As I keep saying, diversify enough to at least keep these guys honest.  Either find a way to make the guy maintaining space look like he is glaringly stalling by not engaging or create some type of low risk attacks that can close the distance.  I am not even necessarily looking for scoring from space.  I just think most of Iowa's guys looked completely lost against OkState and that completely surprised me.

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

Surprised to see so much angst about collar ties in this thread. A guy can do a LOT of stuff from a collar tie, it's arguably the most offensive position you can take.

Push. Push. Push. Iowa Style. 

 

 

(can of worms opened)

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2 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Push. Push. Push. Iowa Style. 

 

 

(can of worms opened)

There's working from collar ties, then there's locking up and pushing. The latter is "Iowa Style" :D To be fair it pays big dividends on stalling points, even though I consider locking up and not working for points to be stalling as well (referees don't see it the same as me, apparently). That said I don't think the Hawkeyes are as bad as they used to be in that regard.

Edited by TobusRex

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1 hour ago, TobusRex said:

There's working from collar ties, then there's locking up and pushing. The latter is "Iowa Style" :D To be fair it pays big dividends on stalling points, even though I consider locking up and not working for points to be stalling as well (referees don't see it the same as me, apparently). That said I don't think the Hawkeyes are as bad as they used to be in that regard.

All of the guys that "push" have quite a bit of offensive from that position.  However, it is predicated on the opponent pushing back/fighting back or even circling.  They may LOOK like they are just pushing, but that is mainly because their opponents usually know what will happen if they fully engage and often just go straight backwards.

This argument has gotten quite stale over time, but watch the Iowa guys that are called out for "just" pushing.  Then look at their takedowns and you will see how high the percentage is that their takedowns come from that same forward motion...........

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