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#NCAAforFreestyle?

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Man do I EVER disagree with freestyle being a better product, let alone much better.  All it really is, is a takedown contest with a little bit of sumo thrown in.  Unless you want to count leg laces and trap arm guts, usually right off takedowns, as mat wrestling.  If you don't score quickly an almost arbitrary decision is made to put someone on the clock.  If they continue to not score, again, an almost arbitrary decision is made to put someone on the clock and it usually ends up being the other guy.  And guess what?  The other guy would win if the score ends up 1-1 to because neither scored when they were on the shot clock.

Don't forget how convoluted tie-breakers can get.  Score ends 6-6? Yep there is still a winner.  But, did he score last?  Or did he score the only 2 point move? 4 point move?  Oh wait, was he cautioned?

If you want wrestling to be the most simplistic it can be from a scoring perspective, I somewhat get why you follow freestyle.  But, I don't want the actual wrestling to be as simple to view as it can be.  I don't like the, "You took me down so I will quickly lay flat until I quickly get my chance to take you down!" philosophy.  To me,  Wrestling has always been about CONTROLLING your opponent.  Without Folkstyle mat wrestling, I just don't see how that is done...................

Totally agree. No idea why many people say freestyle is better like it's a fact. 

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Current freestyle rules are absolutely better than what they were before.  Much more action, and step-out rule helps demonstrate control of the mat, or lack thereof.  I love the fact that there is no "overtime", given the way they've decided rules.  Some of the rules are "funky", and subject to "opinion" (i.e. the unicorn of the 5pt throw), but by and large, freestyle in it's current form awards a.) domination from the feet, and b.) the ability to turn/expose.  Bottom wrestling is non-existent, per se.

Current folkstyle rules continue to get "better and better" as well.  We all know the ins and outs, so going into it is laborious at best.  

The difference is in the incentive.  What moves/positions/techniques are incentivized?  That's really the only difference.  

Folkstyle incentivizes a.) Takedowns, b.) Turns, c.) Control, and d.) the "pinfall".  

Freestyle incentivizes a.) Takedowns, b.) Turns, and c.) a different element of control.  The pinfall in freestyle is almost an afterthought.  Instead, you have 30 second tech falls, which, by and large, kinda sucks as a fan.  One takedown and four laces and it's over.  That can equate to one bad, out of position move, that leads to those turns.  In folk, it's 2-0, maybe 4-0 with one of those turns, presuming that the top man was able to hold it for 2 seconds with the back exposed.  This allows for the guy who made that one mistake to redeem himself during the match, and have it actually "progress" to be a "match". 

So... what's better?  I dunno.  I like both.  But for different reasons.

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2 hours ago, Katie said:

Freestyle was originally an American product.  That's why the USA won every single freestyle medal in 1904.

But since 1904, freestyle and folkstyle evolved along different paths.  Freestyle evolved under international leadership, while folkstyle evolved under national leadership.  Today I think freestyle has a much better product. 

I'd love to see the NCAA start making rule changes so that folkstyle benefits from the successful experiments in freestyle.  I see no reason, for example, that folkstyle can't have a step out rule.

 

The 1904 Olympics were somewhat of a farce with very few nations making it to St. Louis.  In fact, the main reason the US won every medal in FS was because every single wrestler competing was from the US

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrestling_at_the_1904_Summer_Olympics

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1 hour ago, Pinnum said:

NCAA can't really go to Freestyle.

Freestyle's rules are determined by UWW.  The NCAA would lose control over their rules if they simply adopted whatever UWW decided would be the rules that month.  And if the NCAA wanted to standardize Freestyle rules (which many in the United States would love) it wouldn't compel UWW to adhere to the rules which would just end up with two very different Freestyle forms of wrestling.

The wrestling community, in the United States, is a folkstyle community.  It would be rare to find an American who has wrestled Freestyle but not Folkstyle.  But you can find millions who have wrestled Folkstyle and never wrestled Freestyle.  It just happens that the top athletes in Folkstyle are also involved with Freestyle.

Changing college wrestling to Freestyle would be a major structural change.  And I doubt you would get buy-in from high school and youth programs where most of the coaches and parents have little to no experience in Freestyle.  And if the feeder programs aren't changed, it would have a major impact on college wrestling.  I would venture to guess there would be many programs eliminated simply due to a lack of coaching and lack of ability to recruit and retain wrestlers with Freestyle experience (though the D1 programs would remain).

How is the UWW controlling the FS rules different from FIBA controlling the rules of international Basketball?

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53 minutes ago, Katie said:

What exactly is your objection to the step-out rule?

IMO, the rule has proven to be a great reform for freestyle.

The rule has been effective at keeping the clock going.  The rule encourages action.  Further, I have not seen a match devolve into a sumo competition. 

I really don’t understand the resistance to the step-out rule. 

I don't fully object to the step out rule, but I DO like seeing crazy scrambles at the end of the mat and tip toes in takedowns.  The step out removes nearly all of those and you end up with 1 point or a very funky and SOLEY judgement called continuation takedown, often WAAAAY off the mat.

I agree that the rule HAS helped freestyle.

The current folkstyle rule actually HAS helped keep the clock going in neutral and IF the refs keep emphasizing calling stalling when wrestles leave the circle, it also encourages action.  Most wrestlers ARE now aware of when they are close to the edge and most circle back in or try quite diligently to do so.  Mat wrestling just CANNOT be called the same way in the circle as most action goes forward off the whistle getting immediately close to the cylinder edge.  Also, many more stalemates results from these more engaged positions and I actually ENCOURAGE refs to call these stalements quickly and often to try to create more fluid opportunities.

 Further, I have seen PARTS of freestyle matches turn into slap and push when they end up at the edge of the cylinder.

It isn't so much a dislike of the step out rule as it is my liking the current format when refs enforce it correctly.

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3 hours ago, Jim L said:

How is the UWW controlling the FS rules different from FIBA controlling the rules of international Basketball?

You know, when I wrote that, I was sure someone would bring this up. 

There are some key differences.  Basketball was invented by Naismith (an American) and then spread to the rest of the world.  Sure, the game has experienced some changes over the years it isn't a significant deviation from the original game.

Wrestling has been identified in every culture throughout history with many different original inventors who all invented wrestling independently with their own rules.  There are many different influences that go into it and this is what makes it a political struggle with Freestyle as there is a fight over what Freestyle should be between the factions.  

The University of Kansas was playing college basketball in 1898 which was nearly 40 years before FIBA was formed to add the sport to the modern Olympics.  Wrestling was in the ancient Olympics.

The Freestyle and Folkstyle model in the United States could be like the NBA/NCAA/FIBA comparison, in that the Americans involved with the sport are largely are not concerned with the international rules or the governing body and only participate in those rules because it is necessary to win Gold Medals.

While I believe that the differences in the multiple bodies controlling their own rules would be a structural challenge, it would be one that could be managed.  The real issue is disenfranchisement.

The biggest stakeholders in the United States wrestling community are not at the top of the pyramid.  All too often we get caught up in focusing at the top of the sport and we lose focus at the grass root level.  The key stakeholders in really those that first introduce people to the sport of wrestling and overwhelmingly this is done by people volunteering their time to coach their kids or by people who do it has a hobby.  The largest influence into the large participation numbers stems from people who don't actually follow international wrestling but rather wrestled 20 years ago and simply got back into it because their kids were involved.  Most high school coaches don't even follow international wrestling.  We always like to pretend that the high school coaches that we all know are representative of high school coaches in general but they are not.  Most high school coaches are only focused on their individual athletes.  They have too little time to spend following the sport since they work fulltime jobs outside of the sport and focusing on their team takes up so much of their free time already. 

This is the real roadblock.  The cost of education would be significant.  You would see a further divide between the best youth and high school programs and those that aren't as well established.  A former high school wrestler can take to being a youth or high school coach and communicate the sport well enough to make a team competitive in folkstyle but if they don't have any experience in freestyle they are going to be even further behind and frankly will likely be intimidated that they don't know enough about the new version of the sport.

One of the thing that has helped coaches to get involved in the sport, in my experience, has been their ignorance to how little they don't know.  Most people in wrestling don't really know how little they know about wrestling.  And that is a good thing because it gets them involved with the sport.

I have often said that no matter what changes we make to the sport we will always have national champions.  We will never lack national champions.  But we can change the number of people competing for those championships, coaching athletes for those championships, officiating those championships, and sitting in the stands at those championships.  And while we all like to think those numbers will only go up, we need to be cognizant to the fact that changes can result in a contraction where we lose those key stakeholders.

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I believe we should switch from folkstyle to freestyle, and add an MMA style summer wrestling club sport that incorporates the elements of folkstyle that best apply to MMA.

In other words, freestyle will become the HS and College attached sport with the ultimate path for the best to become World and Olympic champions. Club sport in the off season would be some variant of 'MMA wrestling' that purposely bills itself as a stepping stone to the MMA, with the ultimate path to make a lot of money as an MMA champ for the best. 

In my opinion, this would set the U.S. wrestlers up to be dominant in both.

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6 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Man do I EVER disagree with freestyle being a better product, let alone much better.  All it really is, is a takedown contest with a little bit of sumo thrown in.  Unless you want to count leg laces and trap arm guts, usually right off takedowns, as mat wrestling.  If you don't score quickly an almost arbitrary decision is made to put someone on the clock.  If they continue to not score, again, an almost arbitrary decision is made to put someone on the clock and it usually ends up being the other guy.  And guess what?  The other guy would win if the score ends up 1-1 to because neither scored when they were on the shot clock.

Don't forget how convoluted tie-breakers can get.  Score ends 6-6? Yep there is still a winner.  But, did he score last?  Or did he score the only 2 point move? 4 point move?  Oh wait, was he cautioned?

If you want wrestling to be the most simplistic it can be from a scoring perspective, I somewhat get why you follow freestyle.  But, I don't want the actual wrestling to be as simple to view as it can be.  I don't like the, "You took me down so I will quickly lay flat until I quickly get my chance to take you down!" philosophy.  To me,  Wrestling has always been about CONTROLLING your opponent.  Without Folkstyle mat wrestling, I just don't see how that is done...................

I agree, nothing more exciting than watching someone put a leg in and a power half for six minutes.   I'm on the edge of my seat just thinking about that.

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1 minute ago, tbert said:

I agree, nothing more exciting than watching someone put a leg in and a power half for six minutes.   I'm on the edge of my seat just thinking about that.

Not as exciting as watching someone being rewarded with a tech fall after rolling across their own back 4 times in 30 seconds.

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More rule changes per year in folkstyle wrestling (NCAA and NFHS) than there are since UWW created the existing ruleset. Shocking, but true. Old FILA had the flavor of the week rules. UWW has tweaked some things in six years, but in large, they were tweaks.

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Folkstyle is terrible for the NCAA athletes looking to pursue wrestling at the next level.  Take a guy like Zain-absolutely dominant as a folkstyle wrestler.  But he has ignored Freestyle at PSU and now a freestyle technical wizard named Yianni may end his career at 24.  Same thing for Metcalf..Imagine how he great he would have been if he didn't look like a fish out of water his entire freestyle career.  18-23 are the most important years for athletic development, and a number of our guys are completely wasting them.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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On 6/7/2019 at 1:08 PM, MSU158 said:

I don't fully object to the step out rule, but I DO like seeing crazy scrambles at the end of the mat and tip toes in takedowns.  The step out removes nearly all of those and you end up with 1 point or a very funky and SOLEY judgement called continuation takedown, often WAAAAY off the mat.

I agree that the rule HAS helped freestyle.

The current folkstyle rule actually HAS helped keep the clock going in neutral and IF the refs keep emphasizing calling stalling when wrestles leave the circle, it also encourages action.  Most wrestlers ARE now aware of when they are close to the edge and most circle back in or try quite diligently to do so.  Mat wrestling just CANNOT be called the same way in the circle as most action goes forward off the whistle getting immediately close to the cylinder edge.  Also, many more stalemates results from these more engaged positions and I actually ENCOURAGE refs to call these stalements quickly and often to try to create more fluid opportunities.

 Further, I have seen PARTS of freestyle matches turn into slap and push when they end up at the edge of the cylinder.

It isn't so much a dislike of the step out rule as it is my liking the current format when refs enforce it correctly.

You are spot on in both your last two posts - I do not want a step out rule if it negatively impacts the great action we see on the edge of the mat in college.   The college out of bounds rules are really good and I would like to see high school move to the same.  I also think the current stalling/action call as guys go out puts enough pressure on guys not to go out. 

Folkstyle is the only style with real wrestling going on on the mat.  FS & Greco has i person wrestling and the other defending.  I have wrestled both Folkstyle & Free style and follow both closely as a fan.  

Edited by lu1979

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3 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Folkstyle is terrible for the NCAA athletes looking to pursue wrestling at the next level.  Take a guy like Zain-absolutely dominant as a folkstyle wrestler.  But he has ignored Freestyle at PSU and now a freestyle technical wizard named Yianni may end his career at 24.  Same thing for Metcalf..Imagine how he great he would have been if he didn't look like a fish out of water his entire freestyle career.  18-23 are the most important years for athletic development, and a number of our guys are completely wasting them.  

Your thesis that folkstyle is bad for wrestlers trying to pursue greatness on the next level in freestyle is not supported by recent or past history.  

# 1 you don't know how Zain's FS career will go and Yianni is a wrestling wizard in either style.  Metcalf was good but it is always hard to step up to the next level.  Recently we have had JB, Dake,  DT, Cox all transition from Folkstyle and win at the highest level plus many other guys getting Silvers & Bronzes. (I didn't include Kyle S cause I don't want hear the inevitable he wasn't a folkstyle guy argument) Prior to that we have had a long list of stellar athletes who won Gold or other medals after spending "their most important years for athletic development" in what you foolishly describe as wasting them.  One of my college coaches who was an NCAA champ and Olympic silver medalist would say "wrestling is wrestling" when this discussion about the difference between free and folkstyle was debated.  He was right then and would be right today.

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14 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Folkstyle is terrible for the NCAA athletes looking to pursue wrestling at the next level.  Take a guy like Zain-absolutely dominant as a folkstyle wrestler.  But he has ignored Freestyle at PSU and now a freestyle technical wizard named Yianni may end his career at 24.  Same thing for Metcalf..Imagine how he great he would have been if he didn't look like a fish out of water his entire freestyle career.  18-23 are the most important years for athletic development, and a number of our guys are completely wasting them.  

Zain and Metcalf both were suited for folk - they both were strong, great conditioning and had a control-based style in college. Maybe they designed themselves that way because their primary focus was folk - or maybe they focused on folk because it was a better fit for their natural style and attributes. To speculate on what their ceilings would have been had they focused exclusively on freestyle is just making things up out of thin air.

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On 6/7/2019 at 11:04 AM, Katie said:

What exactly is your objection to the step-out rule?

IMO, the rule has proven to be a great reform for freestyle.

The rule has been effective at keeping the clock going.  The rule encourages action.  Further, I have not seen a match devolve into a sumo competition. 

I really don’t understand the resistance to the step-out rule. 

joining late...

but 'the rule has proven to be great reform for free'... are you sure about this?

has action increased? has there been a study?

i haven't really seen sumo either, but im not sure we have more action.

OTOH, i do enjoy the one toe in takedowns in folkstyle.

the continuation rule in free is 'similar' to the one toe in, but is also contradictory to the step out and to the fact they stop it if your head is out of bounds before a turn...like in the nickal-cox match

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On 6/7/2019 at 11:38 AM, treep2000 said:

Current freestyle rules are absolutely better than what they were before.  Much more action, and step-out rule helps demonstrate control of the mat, or lack thereof. 

just joking...but i thought the iowa push style was frowned upon?

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On 6/7/2019 at 11:45 AM, Jim L said:

How is the UWW controlling the FS rules different from FIBA controlling the rules of international Basketball?

FIBA doesn't control ncaa basketball....

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On 6/7/2019 at 7:35 PM, Billyhoyle said:

Folkstyle is terrible for the NCAA athletes looking to pursue wrestling at the next level.  Take a guy like Zain-absolutely dominant as a folkstyle wrestler.  But he has ignored Freestyle at PSU and now a freestyle technical wizard named Yianni may end his career at 24.  Same thing for Metcalf..Imagine how he great he would have been if he didn't look like a fish out of water his entire freestyle career.  18-23 are the most important years for athletic development, and a number of our guys are completely wasting them.  

i disagree... yanni is a different cat... and his 'funk' is bred from folkstyle, in my eyes at least.

how he doesn't expose himself is a miracle.

remember when DT started using folkstyle topwork in free... it worked well.

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wayne baughman wrote a great article in the latest WIN magazine.

he doesn't think having a 3 point TD will help folk.

after reading his arguments i agree.

Great article.

Im not to sure about the submission stuff, especially in HS or lower... but..

desanto may have been a precursor...down 11? get a submission.

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