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Dake officially injured, delay in Final X wrestle-off

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33 minutes ago, spladle08 said:

Seen it a few places that the match is in fact taking place this weekend.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

since dake said he wouldnt be in shape by fargo i dont think it will happen

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4 hours ago, AHamilton said:

 

And if Dake is healthy and defeats Ringer in the special wrestle off, that is great.  However, the process of making start his weight descent and peaking for Final X only to have it delayed isn't necessarily what is best for USA.  It is best for Dake, but not for the World Team.  "Winning" for the US would have been more transparency earlier in the process.

You are never going to have rules that result in scenarios that are always best for every competitor unless you go to a single tourney format like the US Open, period, end of story. It’s literally impossible. USAW decided several years ago that it was best for the world team to treat world medalists with favoritism, since they were most likely to medal again (usually, a very fair assumption). This year, they corrected for the extreme favoritism of having the top challenger exhausted after running a gauntlet by conceiving Final X. Unless we are going to completely scrap favoring returning medalists, allowing them time to recover from injury so they can even compete at all for a spot is the minimum we can do to favor them, since the alternative would be to not include them in the process.

If they self-select out of the process as DT did, that’s one thing, and it may or may not have hurt the world team since we’ll never know whether Downey would’ve prevailed vs guys like Zahid et al. But if Dake tries out for the spot, in the end, the process will have succeeded, not failed, irregardless of the outcome. If he wins, he defended his spot as the process—which is designed to favor returning medalists—allowed and even optimized for. If he loses, the clear best rep will have earned the spot literally more than fairly. Neither outcome is bad for the world team....

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

You are never going to have rules that result in scenarios that are always best for the world team, period, end of story. It’s literally impossible. USAW decided several years ago that it was best for the world team to treat world medalists with favoritism, since they were most likely to medal again (usually, a very fair assumption). This year, they corrected for the extreme favoritism of having the top challenger exhausted after running a gauntlet by conceiving Final X. Unless we are going to completely scrap favoring returning medalists, allowing them time to recover from injury so they can even compete for a spot is the minimum we can do to favor them, since the alternative would be to not include them in the process.

If they self-select out of the process as DT did, that’s one thing, and it may or may not have hurt the world team since we’ll never know whether Downey would’ve prevailed vs guys like Zahid et al. But if Dake tries out for the spot in the end, the process will have succeeded, not failed, it regardless of the outcome. If he wins, he defended his spot as the process—which is designed to favor returning medalists—allowed and even optimized for. If he loses, the clear best rep will have earned the spot literally more than fairly. Neither outcome is bad for the world team....

I'm in favor of giving medalists a break.

But, It comes down to this: He knew a long time ago that he wouldn't be ready for Final X.  Declare out of it when you know you can't wrestle in it, rather than screw up the WTT champs training cycle.  I get why he did it, he followed the rules etc.  I understand.  Maybe we would get a better Ringer in the challenge matches if he wasn't tapering for last weekend and now is training for a date that is unknown to him (but likely known to Dake.)

People who questioned Dake and Taylor were told that we "don't like winning."

 Just the opposite, I want to see the best Ringer vs. the best Dake.  Not Dake vs. a Ringer who is going to be jerked around with for three months.  

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6 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

now is training for a date that is unknown to him (but likely known to Dake.)

I really hope USA Wrestling isn't allowing this to happen. I don't know what the procedure is, but a date should be set by now and communicated to both parties.

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1 minute ago, IronChef said:

I really hope USA Wrestling isn't allowing this to happen. I don't know what the procedure is, but a date should be set by now and communicated to both parties.

It'll be known plenty in advance I am sure, but I would bet Dake has a lot more say in it than Ringer.  I would imagine he already knows when he wants it, and Ringer is guessing.

Let's put it this way: I am currently training for a marathon.  There is a certain date I am going to run this race.  I have known this date for months.  If, all of a sudden, it was bumped two weeks early or two weeks late--- I would be screwed.  I would still be able to to the race, but I would not have a peak performance,  I would come in either overtrained (and maybe injured) or undertrained- neither is ideal.

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21 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I'm in favor of giving medalists a break.

But, It comes down to this: He knew a long time ago that he wouldn't be ready for Final X.  Declare out of it when you know you can't wrestle in it, rather than screw up the WTT champs training cycle.  I get why he did it, he followed the rules etc.  I understand.  Maybe we would get a better Ringer in the challenge matches if he wasn't tapering for last weekend and now is training for a date that is unknown to him (but likely known to Dake.)

People who questioned Dake and Taylor were told that we "don't like winning."

 Just the opposite, I want to see the best Ringer vs. the best Dake.  Not Dake vs. a Ringer who is going to be jerked around with for three months.  

I didn’t say that quote but I guess I agree with the comment in spirit. 

Anyway, a slightly off peak Ringer is better than an exhausted and glycogen-depleted Ringer. The process has improved and will never be ideal since it’s not designed to be. It’s designed to give medalists a break and that’s exactly what’s hspeonding. That’s not “bad for the world team” as you say. 

There is no rule set that both maximizes the chances of a medalist trying out and avoids any gamesmanship. As I said, impossible.

 

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25 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I'm in favor of giving medalists a break.

But, It comes down to this: He knew a long time ago that he wouldn't be ready for Final X.  Declare out of it when you know you can't wrestle in it, rather than screw up the WTT champs training cycle.  I get why he did it, he followed the rules etc.  I understand.  Maybe we would get a better Ringer in the challenge matches if he wasn't tapering for last weekend and now is training for a date that is unknown to him (but likely known to Dake.)

People who questioned Dake and Taylor were told that we "don't like winning."

 Just the opposite, I want to see the best Ringer vs. the best Dake.  Not Dake vs. a Ringer who is going to be jerked around with for three months.  

Dake and Taylor had a deadline to announce that they wanted to postpone. Complaining that they didn't announce earlier than the deadline is ridiculous. Everyone who needed to know, knew when the deadline was.

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7 minutes ago, ugarte said:

Dake and Taylor had a deadline to announce that they wanted to postpone. Complaining that they didn't announce earlier than the deadline is ridiculous. Everyone who needed to know, knew when the deadline was.

They followed the rules.  But games were played.  These games have not necessarily given us a stronger world team.

"Hey, I wanted to do Final X, but my  (bodypart) is too banged up.  I could barely get in my stance in March.  How about whomever wins the WTT wrestles me in early September? I should be ready by then."

Edited by AHamilton

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On 6/12/2019 at 10:33 AM, spladle08 said:

Seen it a few places that the match is in fact taking place this weekend.

Can anyone confirm or deny?

ringer said on flo that J Smith is pushing for Fargo

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1 hour ago, tbert said:

ringer said on flo that J Smith is pushing for Fargo

Would be somewhat fair... but good luck overriding Dake's "injured world champ status."  Wouldn't be surprised to see it dragged out until September.

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14 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Would be somewhat fair... but good luck overriding Dake's "injured world champ status."  Wouldn't be surprised to see it dragged out until September.

yeah dake's flo interview implied that fargo was too soon i would expect it to be on or close to the last possible day, two weeks before worlds

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yeah dake's flo interview implied that fargo was too soon i would expect it to be on or close to the last possible day, two weeks before worlds
Lol 6 days is too soon, I need at least 7.... this dude....

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8 minutes ago, ugarte said:

yeah dake's flo interview implied that fargo was too soon i would expect it to be on or close to the last possible day, two weeks before worlds

Yep.  Dake is that dude that finishes his test early but is sticking around until the professor tells everyone to hand the test in just because he can.  

Jokes aside, Dake is going to take as much time as he can to get ready to make the team.  He is coming off injury, not passing out from a weight cut...

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The only thing I feel is that it should be more than two weeks out.  I would say 4 minimum, preferably 6, possibly 8 weeks.  My primary logic is that if something get tweaked in one if the 3 matches to the winner it limits recovery time.  I'm not talking about a major injury, but a sprained knee or rolled ankle.  Something like that.  2 weeks would not allow much recovery and training time. 

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6 minutes ago, scramble said:

The only thing I feel is that it should be more than two weeks out.  I would say 4 minimum, preferably 6, possibly 8 weeks.  My primary logic is that if something get tweaked in one if the 3 matches to the winner it limits recovery time.  I'm not talking about a major injury, but a sprained knee or rolled ankle.  Something like that.  2 weeks would not allow much recovery and training time. 

That makes sense as far as timing.  Might be beneficial to prepare for worlds too.

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Two weeks is way too close to the World Championships.  I know that this isn't the highest priority, but think of the logistical dilemma of arranging travel for the friends and family of the two competitors; if you're Dake or Ringer's parents do you hedge your bet and book flights now?  Hopefully they have a credit card with a good travel cancellation policy.

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1 hour ago, UsedToBe103 said:

Two weeks is way too close to the World Championships.  I know that this isn't the highest priority, but think of the logistical dilemma of arranging travel for the friends and family of the two competitors; if you're Dake or Ringer's parents do you hedge your bet and book flights now?  Hopefully they have a credit card with a good travel cancellation policy.

Any major airline lets you cancel that far out from travel. Non-issue. 

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On 6/7/2019 at 10:52 AM, wrestlingshoe said:

The problem with our sport is that it is a small circle.  Everyone knows everyone.  There is no separation between the athletes and what is supposed to be the media.  All coverage is done by ex wrestles, non-media types, who cover the sport as a fan, not as a journalist.  It is a symptom of social media.  That is what most wrestling coverage is, not true journalism.  Even the NCAAs on ESPN is a bunch of old wrestlers stammering through conversations with other current or former wrestlers.  Compare that to the professionalism of March Madness coverage and it is night and day. And, you can't compare Dake to LeBron because they don't have a fan from the stands asking LeBron questions.   Bader may as well have been drinking beers with Dake in his living room.  I am a fan of what Flowrestilng has done for the sport and watch it all the time and will continue to do so, but high stakes journalism it is not. 

Agree 100%. I love what they have done. FRL is a great show IMO and Willie does an excellent job on the HS rankings which is impossible to do without some son of a bitch complaining. Nomad does some great work as well and on down the line. However, they (any of the personalities) are very rarely, if ever, going to ask the tough questions or call someone out. Part of it, I imagine, is that they feel they may no longer get the access that they have had in the past to a particular person or team and they are probably right. I can certainly see some college coaches, among others, who all of a sudden are refusing to do interviews or give them access to the team if they don't like what was written about them.

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23 minutes ago, ConnorsDad said:

Agree 100%. I love what they have done. FRL is a great show IMO and Willie does an excellent job on the HS rankings which is impossible to do without some son of a bitch complaining. Nomad does some great work as well and on down the line. However, they (any of the personalities) are very rarely, if ever, going to ask the tough questions or call someone out. Part of it, I imagine, is that they feel they may no longer get the access that they have had in the past to a particular person or team and they are probably right. I can certainly see some college coaches, among others, who all of a sudden are refusing to do interviews or give them access to the team if they don't like what was written about them.

Good points down the line.  On the whole Flo is a big plus for wrestling.  They do some things better than others (professional interviewing one of the weaker spots).  And some of the people are better than others. I have liked Pyles' recent interviews.  He is pretty good.  I liked with Derek St. John when Pyles without hemming or hawing or mumbling directly asked whether he left Iowa on bad terms -- good question, was what the viewer wanted to know at that point of the conversation, so he just flat out asked it, without the apologetic approach that some or the others do if and whrn they do ask a question like that. 

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7 minutes ago, drag it said:

Good points down the line.  On the whole Flo is a big plus for wrestling.  They do some things better than others (professional interviewing one of the weaker spots).  And some of the people are better than others. I have liked Pyles' recent interviews.  He is pretty good.  I liked with Derek St. John when Pyles without hemming or hawing or mumbling directly asked whether he left Iowa on bad terms -- good question, was what the viewer wanted to know at that point of the conversation, so he just flat out asked it, without the apologetic approach that some or the others do if and whrn they do ask a question like that. 

I missed that interview. That is a good sign if that is what he is doing.

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