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Dake officially injured, delay in Final X wrestle-off

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Too bad it takes away from the Final X is all.   That being said, what if we said anyone who is a current world champion automatically has the spot, no wrestle off until they are no longer world champion?

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4 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

That’s fine that you feel that way, but to call the current process silly simply because USAW is not in the “one and done free-for-all” camp of wrestle-offs you’re in very shortsighted. While your approach might maximize “fairness” to all, it introduces the variable of chance to a much greater degree. After all, the outcome of every athletic competition of any kind is a mixture of skill and chance/luck. If the goal is to reduce chance/luck as much as reasonable to field the best possible team, the current process is very far from “silly.”

Again, we’re talkjng wrestle-offs, not the actual competition the wrestle-offs are for. Nobody ever suggested that the Worlds should be postponed due to Dake, as per your Tiger Woods analogy. 

My view is that at this level it is more about the individual results than it is about having the best possible team.  And you're right, I would prefer fairness for all involved.  The whole process we have just doesn't do it for me.  We have the open, then WTT, then Final X.  Seems like a lot of unnecessary layers to select our reps.

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And your view is fine. It’s not silly. Neither is USAW’s current view. But I can’t agree that at any level, it’s more about one result than the best possible team selected by a process that minimizes the role of chance. That makes no sense. If you prefer it to be fair to all, I can get onboard with that, but that’s where the one tournament process’s advantages for team selection end. 

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i dont agree with the one and done.

the NFL is the only major sport that does this.

all others have a championship 7 game series.

hell even golf makes you play the course 2 or 3 times...right? 

 

so an open, then WTT/OTT seems good.

and final x I am not sold on yet...but i like it so far

Edited by GockeS

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I'm starting to read a lot of these arguments as:

"Dake is clearly better than Ringer at this point,  and the only chance we got here is if we give him every opportunity to win the spot"
(Either guy will win the weight)

Fan bias aside, the rules suck but they are what they are.
If its simply a matter of:  putting the "Perceived" best team on the mat.
Then just let the governing body pick who goes, like some other countries.

They just need to tighten up the rules moving forward. That's all.... This Downey having to make weight thing... now that's a whole new bag of sh*t.
USA Darlings vs Black Sheep.
neat

 

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15 hours ago, GockeS said:

i wonder if they are going to make dake and ringer make weight this weekend? 

Wouldn't it make sense for them to make weight 2 hrs before wrestling like everyone else?

Edited by DanGerMan

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5 hours ago, wildcatfan1992 said:

My view is that at this level it is more about the individual results than it is about having the best possible team.  And you're right, I would prefer fairness for all involved.  The whole process we have just doesn't do it for me.  We have the open, then WTT, then Final X.  Seems like a lot of unnecessary layers to select our reps.

It's fine incentive wise to have them skip a couple qualifiers as world champs they have proven  that they are qualified to be in the finals.   At that point they need to show up or shut up.  Period ...no exceptions.  Too much drama from the two "chosen ones". Ownership is on them to be in condition to wrestle on that day.  

 

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Well I have no inside information, but part of me thinks that Dake will also end up saying that he won't be able to go as well. So if we see Ringer get the nod, it will be very interesting to see how he does. Right off the top of my head I don't really remember what Alex did in his last international outing. But I do know that Alex filled in for JB at a World Cup several years ago, and I don't remember exactly how he did, but if my memory serves me right, he looked real good except when he ran into Yazdani of Iran. But if Ringer does get a chance, I would very much like to see him medal. Not just for him, but also for the USA Wrestling program in terms of the depth we have in some of our weight classes. 

I just did some checking and I guess Alex's last international competition was a few months ago at the Dan Kolov, where Alex brought home the Gold. 

Edited by de4856
Additional information

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6 hours ago, de4856 said:

Well I have no inside information, but part of me thinks that Dake will also end up saying that he won't be able to go as well. So if we see Ringer get the nod, it will be very interesting to see how he does. Right off the top of my head I don't really remember what Alex did in his last international outing. But I do know that Alex filled in for JB at a World Cup several years ago, and I don't remember exactly how he did, but if my memory serves me right, he looked real good except when he ran into Yazdani of Iran. But if Ringer does get a chance, I would very much like to see him medal. Not just for him, but also for the USA Wrestling program in terms of the depth we have in some of our weight classes. 

I just did some checking and I guess Alex's last international competition was a few months ago at the Dan Kolov, where Alex brought home the Gold. 

Ringer has done consistently well in his recent competition.  I'm confident if he's our guy, he will medal.  However, how he matches up with Gadzimagomedov worries me.   

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Ringer has done consistently well in his recent competition.  I'm confident if he's our guy, he will medal.  However, how he matches up with Gadzimagomedov worries me.   
Yeah, that's kind of my sentiment, but is Gadz even wresting right now? And besides Dake and Zahid has anyone beaten Ringer over the past year and a half. I feel like he got a Bronze somewhere but cant remember.... Either way....

Gadz or no Gadz I feel like he has a decent shot at Gold and should Medal.

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50 minutes ago, misterc said:

Ringer has done consistently well in his recent competition.  I'm confident if he's our guy, he will medal.  However, how he matches up with Gadzimagomedov worries me.   

Gadzi had a dominant win over Dake  in their first meeting.  Dake made adjustments and no doubt Ringer would too.

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2 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Yeah, that's kind of my sentiment, but is Gadz even wresting right now? And besides Dake and Zahid has anyone beaten Ringer over the past year and a half. I feel like he got a Bronze somewhere but cant remember.... Either way....

Gadz or no Gadz I feel like he has a decent shot at Gold and should Medal.

Ringer got Bronze at this year's Yarygin, losing 5-2 to Gadzi.  As far as I know Gadzi is still active, I've not seen otherwise.

1 hour ago, tbert said:

Gadzi had a dominant win over Dake  in their first meeting.  Dake made adjustments and no doubt Ringer would too.

I don't disagree.  Ringer's loss to Gadzi was less of a beating than Dake's loss to Gadzi.  Stylistically, Ringer/Gadzi just worries me. 

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Well that had to be one of the strangest interviews.  Dake, normally well spoken, stammered through it some how.  I wonder what the real reason is.

Regardless I guess we are waiting for Dake to get back in shape whenever that may be.  Cant be Fargo,  so... Probably september.

Edited by tbert

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4 hours ago, Dr. Novak said:

Dake was squashed by a heavyweight in the practice room.  

That's what it sounds like.  There is a video on Flo, Bader interviewing Dake.

I say this as a giant Dake fan.  This is a strange interview.  

Dake spends over 4 minutes telling an endless story, much of it completely irrelevant to what anyone watching it would want to know -- his vacation, his wife's pregnancy, something about a plastic surgeon, etc.  In the relevant part it sounds like a 300 pound heavyweight landed on him.

The injury is never identified, or if it was, I missed it.  He says he saw a doctor that Yianni saw, so probably a knee.  He goes on a long tangent about how the plastic surgeon told his surgeon that this was important.  (Really?  Major surgery?  Major surgery on a world champion professional athlete?)  This part of the story is told so strangely that it could create the inference that the surgery didn't go well despite the fact that the surgeon was carefully chosen. 

He spools out indirectly that he had surgery and was on crutches for six weeks, but the type of surgery isn't identified, or if it was, I missed it.  

At one point he compares the situation with what would have happened if LeBron James got hurt practicing.  I'm not sure if he's trying to say that it's the same or different, because, like the rest of the interview, he failed to use a single declarative sentence to express himself in a clear way. 

Regardless, I'll use the comparison to make a point.  If this happened to one of the best athletes in any other sport, I doubt that, even without missing a scheduled competition as a result, he would go this far without mentioning it -- and certainly, no interviewer would allow him to ramble on in a 20 minute interview without asking for details and more clarification.  

The secrecy part is remarkable.  He talks about how all Cornell wrestlers were instructed not to say a word to anyone after there was a leak.  He talks about how he -- as an assistant coach for Cornell -- did not attend and coach at meets where he would have to use his crutches, so that no one could know he was hurt.  Etc.

Also notable is how he explains that, on the day of the injury, he and Max Dean had been set up in a far corner of the room, with no one else close by, presumably so that Dake couldn't get hurt, which makes the injury even more freaky.  "We explicitly planned to keep everyone away from me."  Huh?  This is pretty strange, to arrange a college practice this way.  I would have wanted the interviewer to probe that a little.  Why?  Was he already hurt?  Had this happened before?  Did they do this every day, not use all their mat space in a college practice so that their assistant coach could have more room to wrestle?

I feel really bad for Dake.  He's probably my favorite wrestler.  I've posted repeatedly laudatory things about him here.  He's had a bad run of injuries.  This sounds like a particularly bad pieced of bad luck.  But to me this is a perfect example of something that comes up a lot in wrestling--a lack of transparency that is very difficult for fans.

I don't necessarily blame the athletes.  They will do what they think is best for them within the rules.  But it's a strange situation that we are trying to build fan interest in the sport, while that interest is stymied by these situations (suppression of relevant information).  I certainly don't want the invasive coverage that we see when there is too much coverage. 

But a 20 minute interview where so little is given and, more importantly, so little is asked and followed up on, isn't sufficient.  If you want to try to get a better idea of what I'm talking about, watch it for yourself.  It's the lead video on Flo right now, doesn't appear to be behind the pay wall.

 

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5 minutes ago, tbert said:

Well that had to be one of the strangest interviews.  Dake, normally well spoken, stammered through it some how.  I wonder what the real reason is.

Regardless I guess we are waiting for Dake to get back in shape whenever that may be.  Cant be Fargo,  so... Probably september.

Ha!  Jinx.  I just posted the same thing simultaneously, but you perfectly captured what I was trying to say in several hundred fewer words.  

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The problem with our sport is that it is a small circle.  Everyone knows everyone.  There is no separation between the athletes and what is supposed to be the media.  All coverage is done by ex wrestles, non-media types, who cover the sport as a fan, not as a journalist.  It is a symptom of social media.  That is what most wrestling coverage is, not true journalism.  Even the NCAAs on ESPN is a bunch of old wrestlers stammering through conversations with other current or former wrestlers.  Compare that to the professionalism of March Madness coverage and it is night and day. And, you can't compare Dake to LeBron because they don't have a fan from the stands asking LeBron questions.   Bader may as well have been drinking beers with Dake in his living room.  I am a fan of what Flowrestilng has done for the sport and watch it all the time and will continue to do so, but high stakes journalism it is not. 

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