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8 hours ago, IronChef said:


I don’t think there’s any reason to believe this wouldn’t be the case. Just because it’s NCAA doesn’t mean they would switch to men’s rules. Plenty of sports have different rules for men and women.

I personally hope they wrestle folk. If by chance a tournament had both men’s and women’s divisions, easier for refs to rotate and maybe easier for a fan to watch? If you have that fan who isn’t a freestyle fan, they won’t disappear when the women are up? I like freestyle and Greco way more but I think folk would be the way to go.

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On 6/7/2019 at 11:41 AM, pamela said:

I'm not the biggest fan of Tom Brands' coaching but I love how supportive he is of women's wrestling, at the RTC and college levels. Smart move and good for the sport. If NCAA womens' wrestling were to take off, Iowa would be in a very advantageous position with a lot of relationship and status capital. Some might think that doesn't matter for the men's team, but rising tides and all.

I feel the same way. I'm not a Brands or Iowa fan at all, but I think it is cool that they are supporting multiple women athletes with the Hawkeye Wrestling Club. 

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https://ktar.com/story/1688033/arizona-state-university-looks-add-womens-wrestling-team/

 

Yet ASU hasn't added it.  If they did I think they would be instant contenders to win the WCWA.  There is a ton of coaching talent already in place and recruiting from talent rich Southern CA would be easy.  No offense to schools like Menlo and Southern Oregon, but what do they offer that ASU wouldn't?  

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On 6/13/2019 at 7:33 AM, Billyhoyle said:

Those numbers from JB are great-the participation seems like more than enough to support D1 women's wrestling.  So the question now is how can we get these programs added in an environment where athletic departments want to cut non revenue sports?  Is our greatest strength the fact that it will likely be an inexpensive sport to add if a men's program is already in place?  

 

 

I have no inside knowledge, but I suspect that when an athletic director makes a call about what sport a school should sponsor, more than high school participation numbers come into play.

My guess is that those decisions have something to do with expected future donations and overall prestige. 

Lacrosse is booming and I suspect it has something to do with the athletes being largely upper-middle class, having high graduation rates, and being expected to make enough money to donate in the future.

Crew still exists (despite tiny participation numbers) for similar reasons.

I don’t know anything about the demographics or graduation rates of women’s wrestlers. But one thing women’s wrestling has going for it is the Olympics. It lends the sport some prestige.

Also, as you pointed out, a school that already has men’s wrestling will have lower startup costs for a women’s program. That can only help.

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

Lacrosse is booming and I suspect it has something to do with the athletes being largely upper-middle class, having high graduation rates, and being expected to make enough money to donate in the future.

The first part is a line (lacrosse is booming) I often hear as a reason for losing wrestling from some of the hardcore Title IX pundits like Nancy Hogshead-Makar, who would claim the law was never responsible for any mens cut program, rather than it was a shift in interest - and she is meaning the college level. We know high school participation numbers have peaks and valleys. 

That being said, is lacrosse actually booming at the college level? It is at the same levels men's wrestling is - the non-Division I programs. 

According to the NCAA's own participation statistics, from 1982-83 to 2017-18:
Men's Division I lacrosse increased from 50 programs to 71, a gain of 21 teams. Division II went from 18 to 72, while Division III went from 70 to 237. 
Since we've had an increase in NCAA member schools over the past 30 years, here's other things to consider. 
In 1982-83, there were 274 Division I institutions. 18% of Division I schools fielded a men's lacrosse program. 
In 2017-18, there were 337 Division I institutions. 20% of Division I schools fielded a men's lacrosse program. 

At the Division I level, this hardly constitutes a boom. 

Men's wrestling statistically peaked the first year they tracked the participation numbers, with 146 Division I schools having teams with a percentage of 52.9% of D1 schools represented. 
As of 2017-18, with the number listed at 76, that's 21.9% - lower because of cuts, but also lower because schools transitioning from other divisions aren't coming in with wrestling programs in large. 

At the Division III level, lacrosse went from being sponsored at 22.9% in 82-83 to 52.2%. Lacrosse is booming for the same reason schools are adding wrestling programs at the non-D1 level - they need male enrollment. Some schools pick lacrosse, some are picking wrestling. 

D3 wrestling was at 87 teams in 2011-12. It's going to check in at 112 this season. 

 

Now, as far as the alumni and well-to-do alumni donating back - we have 21 more D1 schools than we did 35 years ago. Not sure if the trickle-down is statistically viable. 

 

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28 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

The first part is a line (lacrosse is booming) I often hear as a reason for losing wrestling from some of the hardcore Title IX pundits like Nancy Hogshead-Makar, who would claim the law was never responsible for any mens cut program, rather than it was a shift in interest - and she is meaning the college level. We know high school participation numbers have peaks and valleys. 

That being said, is lacrosse actually booming at the college level? It is at the same levels men's wrestling is - the non-Division I programs. 

According to the NCAA's own participation statistics, from 1982-83 to 2017-18:
Men's Division I lacrosse increased from 50 programs to 71, a gain of 21 teams. Division II went from 18 to 72, while Division III went from 70 to 237. 
Since we've had an increase in NCAA member schools over the past 30 years, here's other things to consider. 
In 1982-83, there were 274 Division I institutions. 18% of Division I schools fielded a men's lacrosse program. 
In 2017-18, there were 337 Division I institutions. 20% of Division I schools fielded a men's lacrosse program. 

At the Division I level, this hardly constitutes a boom. 

Men's wrestling statistically peaked the first year they tracked the participation numbers, with 146 Division I schools having teams with a percentage of 52.9% of D1 schools represented. 
As of 2017-18, with the number listed at 76, that's 21.9% - lower because of cuts, but also lower because schools transitioning from other divisions aren't coming in with wrestling programs in large. 

At the Division III level, lacrosse went from being sponsored at 22.9% in 82-83 to 52.2%. Lacrosse is booming for the same reason schools are adding wrestling programs at the non-D1 level - they need male enrollment. Some schools pick lacrosse, some are picking wrestling. 

D3 wrestling was at 87 teams in 2011-12. It's going to check in at 112 this season. 

 

Now, as far as the alumni and well-to-do alumni donating back - we have 21 more D1 schools than we did 35 years ago. Not sure if the trickle-down is statistically viable. 

 

Simply comparing 1980s numbers to today may not give an accurate picture of how quickly lacrosse is currently growing.  A 2018 article I just found said that in the past decade, 383 new men's and women's lacrosse teams were created.  That's an average of over 38 teams per year for ten straight years.  I'd call that a boom.

As far as reasons for men's wrestling programs being cut:  The lack-of-interest argument seems ridiculous to me.  All you have to do is look at high school participation numbers to prove that wrong.  The most plausible explanation to me is Title 9 coupled with unspoken factors ADs might care about (demographics, athletes' graduation rates, prestige, expected donations, etc).

Edited by Katie

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And most of those programs added are at the sub-D1 level, the same levels wrestling has added over 200 teams in the last 19 years. The growth models of both genders are vastly different in terms of why. We look at growth from the lens of the D1 level too often and criticize leaders for not adding more D1 programs. To put lax in our window, that’s why I pointed out the percentage sponsoring vs just the numbers of new teams. A portion of those teams from NCAA stats were also existing from NAIA and NJCAA teams reclassifying.

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2 hours ago, JasonBryant said:

That being said, is lacrosse actually booming at the college level?

Lax has had more people willing to step up to invest into the sport.  There are very few alumni that competed in Lax compared to wrestling but they write checks to the college programs and parents of college lax players are willing to donate to the sport. 

This is one of the key differences I see in the two sports.

The other big one is that the demands are different.  College wrestling is much more demanding and a less social sports.  Which really hurts the sport.  Wrestling year round isn't very good for the sport, but it great for creating world champs.

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I personally hope they wrestle folk. If by chance a tournament had both men’s and women’s divisions, easier for refs to rotate and maybe easier for a fan to watch? If you have that fan who isn’t a freestyle fan, they won’t disappear when the women are up? I like freestyle and Greco way more but I think folk would be the way to go.

Why would they be at the same events? They are different teams and different sports. All the momentum in women's college wrestling has been happening with freestyle rules. There's no good reason to change that.

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1 hour ago, IronChef said:


Why would they be at the same events? They are different teams and different sports. All the momentum in women's college wrestling has been happening with freestyle rules. There's no good reason to change that.

Why not be at the same events like a Midlands or Kaufman Brand Open or wherever? How many fans are women’s only tournaments going to draw? If it’s a money issue or get a men’s fan interested in women’s? Just spitballing some ideas... 

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On 6/7/2019 at 5:18 PM, Boompa said:

I just hope that for AD's to "add women's wrestling", they don't look to cut some funding from men's wrestling to pay for it.

That is a 100% realistic possibilty and would be a total backfire.

Plus, I would like to see a separate NCAA national championships.  Do not combine them both like in freestyle.  They could combine all 3 levels and hold all 3 tournaments on the same weekend in a place like Rec Hall.

Bingo - these how soon these GEN-X'rs and Millennial's forget Title IX and how they decimated wrestling in the 1970's and 1980's.

I wouldn't give a dollar or minute of my time to Women's wrestling for what these sell outs did. Then FIFA & Olympics take away men's weight classes in the Olympics and World Championships, while wanting us to grow the women's sport? On top of that, the Olympics, like many sports, gives equal footing to women's wrestling with the number of weight classes as men's when there are probably 20x the participants in the world (US - high school participation boys = 245,000, girls = 16,000)

And now you want me to buy into Women's wrestling?  Do they think we have to appease feminist wresting to to save men's wrestling?

Now, I am not saying women can't wrestle, and I am all for those that want to, but it is not a sport that they look natural or good doing.  Even the best in the sport, while talented and hard working, look out of place and stiff with no fluidity; they look like 8th grade boys wrestling - no thanks.

No different than other activities that girls look better doing - If you want me to go see the ballet, I would say that the grace, lines, and elegance of a women are far superior to men doing ballet, and even the same with gymnastics - It is just natural symbiotic beauty watching them in those activities, there is just something innate beauty that both men & women see when they do those sports. That is why they are more popular then men in those activities. 

But watching them try to recreate the motion and fluidity of men in wrestling or basketball or baseball, there is nothing close - no 'Feng shui' , polished acumen, or graceful movement.

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10 minutes ago, Chitown said:

Bingo - these how soon these GEN-X'rs and Millennial's forget Title IX and how they decimated wrestling in the 1970's and 1980's.

I wouldn't give a dollar or minute of my time to Women's wrestling for what these sell outs did. Then FIFA & Olympics take away men's weight classes in the Olympics and World Championships, while wanting us to grow the women's sport? On top of that, the Olympics, like many sports, gives equal footing to women's wrestling with the number of weight classes as men's when there are probably 20x the participants in the world (US - high school participation boys = 245,000, girls = 16,000)

And now you want me to buy into Women's wrestling?  Do they think we have to appease feminist wresting to to save men's wrestling?

Now, I am not saying women can't wrestle, and I am all for those that want to, but it is not a sport that they look natural or good doing.  Even the best in the sport, while talented and hard working, look out of place and stiff with no fluidity; they look like 8th grade boys wrestling - no thanks.

No different than other activities that girls look better doing - If you want me to go see the ballet, I would say that the grace, lines, and elegance of a women are far superior to men doing ballet, and even the same with gymnastics - It is just natural symbiotic beauty watching them in those activities, there is just something innate beauty that both men & women see when they do those sports. That is why they are more popular then men in those activities. 

But watching them try to recreate the motion and fluidity of men in wrestling or basketball or baseball, there is nothing close - no 'Feng shui' , polished acumen, or graceful movement.

 

Helen Maroulis would probably disagree, as well as many women's wrestlers.  I'm practically married to a woman wrestler and she works just as hard as anyone else does and would probably decimate any 8th grader her size.  The thing is that women's wrestling is fairly new as a sport to the US.  When was the last time we saw multiple high schoolers qualifying for the men's WTT/OTT?  It happens more with women's wrestling because there isn't nearly as much depth or competition.  Back in like 2004 you could pretty much show up and qualify for the trials at any weight.  That's changing now.  I would say within another 10 or 15 years women's wrestling will build up that depth and you'll see a lot better competition result from that.  

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18 hours ago, Chitown said:

Bingo - these how soon these GEN-X'rs and Millennial's forget Title IX and how they decimated wrestling in the 1970's and 1980's.

I wouldn't give a dollar or minute of my time to Women's wrestling for what these sell outs did. Then FIFA & Olympics take away men's weight classes in the Olympics and World Championships, while wanting us to grow the women's sport? On top of that, the Olympics, like many sports, gives equal footing to women's wrestling with the number of weight classes as men's when there are probably 20x the participants in the world (US - high school participation boys = 245,000, girls = 16,000)

And now you want me to buy into Women's wrestling?  Do they think we have to appease feminist wresting to to save men's wrestling?

Now, I am not saying women can't wrestle, and I am all for those that want to, but it is not a sport that they look natural or good doing.  Even the best in the sport, while talented and hard working, look out of place and stiff with no fluidity; they look like 8th grade boys wrestling - no thanks.

No different than other activities that girls look better doing - If you want me to go see the ballet, I would say that the grace, lines, and elegance of a women are far superior to men doing ballet, and even the same with gymnastics - It is just natural symbiotic beauty watching them in those activities, there is just something innate beauty that both men & women see when they do those sports. That is why they are more popular then men in those activities. 

But watching them try to recreate the motion and fluidity of men in wrestling or basketball or baseball, there is nothing close - no 'Feng shui' , polished acumen, or graceful movement.

1) Nobody has forgotten about Title 9.

2) Everybody knows that Title 9 has been in a factor in the loss of college wrestling programs.

3) Everybody knows that men are more interested in sports then women are.

4) Everybody knows that men are better at sports than women are. That's literally the point of having women's sports.

5) Nobody cares what you "buy into"

6) FILA is now called UWW.

7) The International Olympic Committee does not need wrestling.  It's the other way around.

Also, your comments about what women look "natural" doing are disturbing.

Edited by Katie

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Why not be at the same events like a Midlands or Kaufman Brand Open or wherever? How many fans are women’s only tournaments going to draw? If it’s a money issue or get a men’s fan interested in women’s? Just spitballing some ideas... 

There isn't room or time for it, for starters. Doubling the number of weight classes is impractical.

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59 minutes ago, IronChef said:


There isn't room or time for it, for starters. Doubling the number of weight classes is impractical.

Very true. You caught me. I’m just thinking of ways to get more men’s teams.  I’d like to see a school like Texas A&M or another big school be successful on the women’s side then say “hey, let’s add a men’s team!” Wishful thinking

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Where I live we regularly see young women offered College scholarships in competitive shooting as well as Rodeo.

The usual sports as Track & Field, Basketball and such - even Ice Hockey are there as well. Oddly enough, in our area the shooting scholarships and Olympic Training Center invites are generally to one school nearby - whose latest graduating class was 3 - and produced top shooters every year of the program.

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14 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Now it’s a novelty. For a few exceptions women’s basketball doesn’t draw. Not sure of the long term fan interest potential.  No issues with women wrestling. Good for females. 

There will never be long term fan interest potential.  Men's wrestling is a fringe sport with spotty success (NCAA's), women's wrestling is even more fringe.

In 20 years, you will be able to combine the D1, D2 and D3 women's national championships in one arena and there will always be open seats...that is the reality.

That is why I think, someone has already thought of the idea of including the finals of the womens with the mens finals, just so someone will watch it.

This line of thinking does not make me a dinosaur, it is the same line of thinking I have when I would rather watch a MLB game than a little league game.

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6 minutes ago, Boompa said:

In 20 years, you will be able to combine the D1, D2 and D3 women's national championships in one arena and there will always be open seats...that is the reality.

Woeful context, considering you can take D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA and every other men's college division and combine them in one arena and have empty seats. 

D1's championships had a number of empty seats as recently as 2003. The D1 championship is one of FIVE championship sports that makes the NCAA money - that's of the 90 NCAA championships they run. Comparing one of the five to a fledgling sport isn't apples to apples. It doesn't make you a dinosaur, but it doesn't mean you're giving an adequate comparison. You could replace "Women's wrestling" with virtually any of those other sports and still be correct (with both genders). Proper context and comparison is important. 

Also, that's how new sports start, combining all member schools until there's enough to branch out into separate divisions. It took beach volleyball 7 years to have its first "official" NCAA championship. 

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14 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Now it’s a novelty. For a few exceptions women’s basketball doesn’t draw. Not sure of the long term fan interest potential.  No issues with women wrestling. Good for females. 

With a few exceptions Mens DI wrestling does not draw.  A lot of the matches I see on the Big Ten network are more sparsely attended than an below average HS meet

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11 hours ago, Boompa said:

There will never be long term fan interest potential.  Men's wrestling is a fringe sport with spotty success (NCAA's), women's wrestling is even more fringe.

In 20 years, you will be able to combine the D1, D2 and D3 women's national championships in one arena and there will always be open seats...that is the reality.

That is why I think, someone has already thought of the idea of including the finals of the womens with the mens finals, just so someone will watch it.

This line of thinking does not make me a dinosaur, it is the same line of thinking I have when I would rather watch a MLB game than a little league game.

So don't watch women's wrestling if you don't want to. If nobody watches women's wrestling other than the friends and families of the athletes, that's fine.  The point is that it provides an opportunity for these women to compete at the NCAA level, an opportunity that they deserve.  The top women's wrestlers should be able to go to places like PSU, Iowa State, Iowa, etc to hone their craft.  They shouldn't be forced into random enrollment driven colleges to pursue their sport. They aren't competing to entertain you, they are competing because they are elite athletes pursuing their interest and dream.  

Personally, if women's wrestling is added at the D1 level, I won't follow it as closely as I do men's D1.  But I will watch NCAAs and probably a couple duals, and I'd follow the sport more closely than any NCAA sport other than D1 Football, D1 Men's Basketball, D1 Lacrosse, and D1 Men's wrestling.  As a huge fan of men's D1 wrestling, I'd also be very thankful that the women's programs would help secure the men's teams.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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Keep in mind that these school Presidents are being told that they can add a wrestling program and in 3 years have 60 additional kids on campus, 30 ladies and 30 men. Then they can get 1 coach for both programs and only pay him/her $40,000-$50,000 a year. MAYBE they will get a full time Assistant Coach too. From a business aspect that does sound nice.

Some of these schools have a hard time finding a coach that wants to be in nowhereville, USA where the population is less than 20K and the nearest major airport is 2 hours away. In a lot of states a HS Coach will not give up their nice paying job to take a pay cut AND run 2 programs mostly full of 18 & 19 year olds on their first time away from home. Oh and don't forget about the parent "involvement" and I am not referring to parents writing donation checks or finding new recruiting prospects. 

Then there is the aspect of the teams that are already established not following the rules, i.e. At the recent WCWA Nationals it was brought to light that a coach that did not get his girls team weight certified. ALL SEASON LONG. That is a total violation of the WCWA, NAIA, & NCAA. At an NCAA institution the coaching staff would have been released of their duties. With the WCWA, the girls were allowed to compete, no sanctions/fines on the school, and no sanctions/fines to the coaching staff as well.  Right now the college women's wrestling scene is literally the Wild Wild West!

Now there are so many small colleges that are going to offer Women's Wrestling that the market is flooded, similar to Women's Rowing/Crew. There are schools out there offering a great financial aid package to ladies that have NEVER wrestled a Freestyle match. WOW!  

 

 

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