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We need a separate thread for this... I actually think the right guy won but the wrong way. There are several things to question though. The move in question was called 2 blue by the mat ref. According to the Flo announcers, the judge called it two red and the chairman called it 2-2. 2-2 went one the board. So my first question is, if all three officials disagree, what should go on the scoreboard? I thought two out of three have to agree. Is it possible that the officials realized this and went back to review that scoring sequence on their own (like an officials review, not a challenge)? Also, I believe if it is one continuous move, which it clearly was in this case, it cannot be scored 2-2. So the score was obviously wrong, and they needed to determine who initiated. This is very debatable and I have watched it several times and can see a case for both. However since the score being wrong definitely affects the match, would “bad time” be appropriate, and could they have gone back to like 45 seconds left? Finally, I want to mention that the sequence in the very beginning of the match looked like only two separate moves to me not three. I don’t think the first one can be called 4-2. I think it’s either 4 red or 2 blue depending on who’s move it is... I’d call it 4 red. Immediately after that it’s an obvious 2 for Yianni. So is the protest going to change anything?

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as to the beginning sequence:

i actually wondered about them giving 4 to yanni (2 twice)

not sure if it applies in this situation, but zain was never able to get to a defensible position after the first exposure and a second 2 was given.

 

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Horrible call.  Defensive man initiated an exposure and the offensive man did not immediately assume control after the exposure.  Two for the defensive man.  Not a hard call.  At no point did the offensive man stop or impede the motion initiated by the defensive man, thus no 2-2.  

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40 minutes ago, Eagle26 said:

We need a separate thread for this... I actually think the right guy won but the wrong way. There are several things to question though. The move in question was called 2 blue by the mat ref. According to the Flo announcers, the judge called it two red and the chairman called it 2-2. 2-2 went one the board. So my first question is, if all three officials disagree, what should go on the scoreboard? I thought two out of three have to agree. 

I didn't see it but two out of three did agree reading what you said here.

Unless the ref or judge mis-called the colors then there were two separate situations being scored. The chair agreed with each of them.

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Has someone posted the rules on when a brick needs to be thrown?  Would love to read them.  Also, does the team throwing the brick need to explain what sequence they are challenging?

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All three can't disagree.  If the Referee and the Judge(table) disagree, then the Mat Chairman 'stands' for one of the two.

I think the call is actually pretty tough, but should have been 2-0 Zain based on the rules since he initiated the attack, but a case can be made that Yanni put him into a bridge at the end, which would make it 2-2.

The rules are a lot more vague than people on the internet seem to think they are.

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/wrestling_rules.pdf

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2 minutes ago, madcat11 said:

The idea that Zain initiated the move is hilarious.

 

Watch his legs throughout and then tell me that with a straight face.

 

Screw the timing they scored it wrong.

 

Zain took the shot.  The only way Yanni can score off of Zain's shot, according to the rules, is:

"Furthermore, the wrestler on whom a hold was initiated (defending wrestler) may only be awarded points if, by his own action, he has:

a)Brought the offensive wrestler to the ground.

b) Conducted the action on a continuous basis.

c) Succeeded in controlling the offensive wrestler by blocking him in a bridge position, that is, in a position considered completed."

Whatever that means..

 

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7 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

I didn't see it but two out of three did agree reading what you said here.

Unless the ref or judge mis-called the colors then there were two separate situations being scored. The chair agreed with each of them.

I think it was the same situation being scored. Ref said only two blue because he thought Yianni initiated it. Judge disagreed and said only two red because he thought Zain initiated. Chair makes the safe call and goes 2-2, thus none of them agreed. I could only see that the ref called it 2 blue, but I believe that is what the announcers described 

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1 hour ago, Eagle26 said:

I think it was the same situation being scored. Ref said only two blue because he thought Yianni initiated it. Judge disagreed and said only two red because he thought Zain initiated. Chair makes the safe call and goes 2-2, thus none of them agreed. I could only see that the ref called it 2 blue, but I believe that is what the announcers described 

That's the point I was making. Given that ref/judge did feel what they did it was two separate scoring situations. The chair gets to rule on each separately. I'm not getting into the merits of this situation just that one scored two red the other two blue therefore the chair gets to rule on each as separate calls. He could have ruled two red and white paddled the two blue. He could have ruled two blue and white paddled the two red. He could have ruled 2-2 as he did or he could have white paddled both calls.

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Apart from any claims about procedures and rules, the fact remains that Yianni did not score exposure points and did not outscore Zain, who had criteria because he had a four-pointer.

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15 minutes ago, dmm53 said:

Apart from any claims about procedures and rules, the fact remains that Yianni did not score exposure points and did not outscore Zain, who had criteria because he had a four-pointer.

Exposure points, four-pointers, and other scores do not exist when you’re abstracting from procedures and rules. 

There are many folks -likely better informed and less biased- that disagree about the exposure.  I think it could’ve went either way but it certainly is not a fact that no exposure occurred. 

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Refs need to improve their mind reading skills in order to correctly award points to wrestlers who initiate moves. All refs should be women as they alone can see through the souls of men, and then only when they have been disillusioned by love and are not wrestling fans. Obviously.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

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27 minutes ago, ThorsteinV said:

Exposure points, four-pointers, and other scores do not exist when you’re abstracting from procedures and rules. 

There are many folks -likely better informed and less biased- that disagree about the exposure.  I think it could’ve went either way but it certainly is not a fact that no exposure occurred. 

Here is the issue. The refs calling the match had time to calmly review the sequence and THEY decided it was 2 for red and 0 for blue, and then adjusted the score according to what they deemed the correct scoring for the match. 6-6 Red over Blue

The refs calling the match made this call. What are we gonna do here, go all Russian and have panels make calls after the fact? I thought wrestling community just wanted to get the call right? The refs gave us the call they deemed right. Now because Koll knows he can't challenge the actual call (because of its subjectivity) his whole protest is centered around the timing of the brick throw. The scoring is more important than the timing of the brick throw. And if the brick throw at the end of the match is too late, then what does this say about a Monday Morning Protest? That's way, way too late. That won't fly. 

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45 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is the issue. The refs calling the match had time to calmly review the sequence and THEY decided it was 2 for red and 0 for blue, and then adjusted the score according to what they deemed the correct scoring for the match. 6-6 Red over Blue

The refs calling the match made this call. What are we gonna do here, go all Russian and have panels make calls after the fact? I thought wrestling community just wanted to get the call right? The refs gave us the call they deemed right. Now because Koll knows he can't challenge the actual call (because of its subjectivity) his whole protest is centered around the timing of the brick throw. The scoring is more important than the timing of the brick throw. And if the brick throw at the end of the match is too late, then what does this say about a Monday Morning Protest? That's way, way too late. That won't fly. 

that's what many people think. we went all cael mafia.

if you look at video, it's pretty clear yanni's left leg is doing the work.

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5 hours ago, Eagle26 said:

I think it was the same situation being scored. Ref said only two blue because he thought Yianni initiated it. Judge disagreed and said only two red because he thought Zain initiated. Chair makes the safe call and goes 2-2, thus none of them agreed. I could only see that the ref called it 2 blue, but I believe that is what the announcers described 

this is why people hate freestyle.

in cases like this..no one really knows who initiated.

but based on the video posted in this thread... it's yanni's left leg doing the work.

again. I WANTED Z to win. but not like this.

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

that's what many people think. we went all cael mafia.

if you look at video, it's pretty clear yanni's left leg is doing the work.

Per the rules, Yianni only scored if he “conducted the action on a continuous basis.”  I don’t know what that means though. 

Intuitively, it looks like Yianni merely rolled through Zain’s hold (as opposed to initiating his own movement).

So really I don’t have anything to contribute here. 

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