Jump to content

Recommended Posts

6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

It isn't going to be adopted and I will explain to you why this is the case. The whole idea of wrestling is to force the wrestlers to actually wrestle. To engage. To add in a "bad time" rule would be an admission that wrestlers do in fact avoid wrestling i.e. attempting to improve when they are ahead. We all know that in practice they do this, but a bad time rule basically is tantamount to an admission of such. The powers that be in wrestling don't want to go there. 

This explanation has nothing to do with the Zain Yianni match, I'm just trying to help you better understand. 

it might also be an admission of the fallibility of officials.

 

on the other hand... isn't not engaging a way to wrestle? sun tzu, attack where he must hasten and all...

JB backed up all the time... only to snatch the victory from you, luring you in.

there is more than the iowa style of wrestling.

Edited by GockeS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, GockeS said:

maybe so, but doesn't it seem fair?

Freestyle scoring is extremely general in nature and subjective.   A lot  is left to interpretation and for the most  part the wrestlers learn to stay away from situations that leave the decisions in the officials hands.  Most who have embraced the sport realize this and also realize the scoring is not always fair, due to the fast pace of the match there are situations in nearly every match that can be scored differently one may benefit one wrestler, the next may benefit the other, or maybe not.  Most of the world knows this and accepts it, bitches a little, but leaves it on the mat.    Not always fair.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, tbert said:

 Most who have embraced the sport realize this and also realize the scoring is not always fair,

great point

this is why people in most cases dont embrace it.

it's almost like the other guy who was talking about ice skating judges

marks for creativity are going to suffer there willie, he just shot a straight single - cpyle

I agree, it just wasn't cool enough, what do you think nomad?

The only predictable thing about figure skating is that the sport is unpredictable. Every time a skater steps onto the ice, there’s always a sense that something could go splendidly right or disastrously wrong — and we, as viewers, never know what we’re going to get.

But it’s not just skaters’ performances that can leave our jaws on the floor; sometimes it’s the judges’ decisions too.

The scoring system that’s currently used for all competitive figure skating — including at the Olympics — isn’t easy to crack. A skater’s final marks can somehow add up to a seemingly random number like 150.49, and that figure includes both component scores for artistry and presentation, and more technical scores like the esoteric “grades of execution,” which measure how well a skater performs individual “elements” of a program. And that’s before you count any deductions or bonuses. Consequently, figure skating can feel inaccessible to casual fans, especially to those who tend to only tune in once every four years during the Olympics.

Edited by GockeS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, GockeS said:

great point

this is why people in most cases dont embrace it.

it's almost like the other guy who was talking about ice skating judges

marks for creativity are going to suffer there willie, he just shot a straight single - cpyle

I agree nomad it just wasn't cool enough

The only predictable thing about figure skating is that the sport is unpredictable. Every time a skater steps onto the ice, there’s always a sense that something could go splendidly right or disastrously wrong — and we, as viewers, never know what we’re going to get.

But it’s not just skaters’ performances that can leave our jaws on the floor; sometimes it’s the judges’ decisions too.

The scoring system that’s currently used for all competitive figure skating — including at the Olympics — isn’t easy to crack. A skater’s final marks can somehow add up to a seemingly random number like 150.49, and that figure includes both component scores for artistry and presentation, and more technical scores like the esoteric “grades of execution,” which measure how well a skater performs individual “elements” of a program. And that’s before you count any deductions or bonuses. Consequently, figure skating can feel inaccessible to casual fans, especially to those who tend to only tune in once every four years during the Olympics.

But the wrestlers seem to like it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, GockeS said:

do they?

if i remember, there were several posters on here lamenting the lack of participants...in US open, WTT etc...

 

anyway. im done. it's pointless.

Several posters that are not wrestlers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Regulator said:

When I watched the first angle I thought it was Yianni’s move. But from this angle it appears to me Zain pushes with his left foot and he regrabs the heel to initiate the move. Yianni’s left foot and knee don’t look to be in position to push off of. At least not for a normal human ( which Yianni may not be). But it does appear Yianni rolls Zain through to me also. So I don’t know the rules well enough. Looks like 2 & 2 to me. But I could see 2-0 Zain. 

https://twitter.com/sockobuw/status/1137537809072492544?s=21

 

By far the best footage of the sequence is Flo's. They really did an outstanding job of capturing every nuance and detail in this clip which shows the best possible angle to evaluate the sequence in high-definition slow motion: https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6516970-yianni-zain-scramble-sequence-hi-def

A few key observations:

1. Zain plants his foot not to initiate a hip-over or roll-through for exposure, but rather, to shelf the leg so that he can readjust his grip on the leg. He literally gives up the grip on the leg as Yianni initiates the move to expose Zain. If that is not the clearest sign of whose move it is, I really don't know what to say other than the good old "have you even wrestled??". He doesn't regain a grip on the leg until his legs go limp and straighten out to counter the momentum that ultimately flips him over for the exposure.

2. Importantly, as he his shelfing the leg and gives up his grip to try to reposition himself, a clear sign that whatever move he had initiated had been neutralized (for 15-20 seconds, no less), he has NO grip on the leg. The hand in the crackdown position was literally on the mat.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

ok, so im not done.
 

if the wrestlers love it.. why aren't they participating?

Ask them, se3

 

1 minute ago, wrestlingnerd said:

By far the best footage of the sequence is Flo's. They really did an outstanding job of capturing every nuance and detail in this clip which shows the best possible angle to evaluate the sequence in high-definition slow motion: https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6516970-yianni-zain-scramble-sequence-hi-def

A few key observations:

1. Zain plants his foot not to initiate a hip-over or roll-through for exposure, but rather, to shelf the leg so that he can readjust his grip on the leg. He literally gives up the grip on the leg as Yianni initiates the move to expose Zain. If that is not the clearest sign of whose move it is, I really don't know what to say other than the good old "have you even wrestled??". He doesn't regain a grip on the leg until his legs go limp and straighten out to counter the momentum that ultimately flips him over for the exposure.

2. Importantly, as he his shelfing the leg and gives up his grip to try to reposition himself, a clear sign that whatever move he had initiated had been neutralized (for 15-20 seconds, no less), he has NO grip on the leg. The hand in the crackdown position was literally on the mat.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Zain pressures in and yanks up on leg to expose Yanni.

2. Yanni reacts to the pressure rolling Zain through without stopping or redirecting the action.

 

Pretty clear 2-0 at least Zain.  The aggressive action receives weighted measure.

The other 2 for Yanni is debatable could be or not.  Judgement call.

Freestyle scoring is and has never been an exact science. This match is not unlike several hundred others.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, tbert said:

1. Zain pressures in and yanks up on leg to expose Yanni.

2. Yanni reacts to the pressure rolling Zain through without stopping or redirecting the action.

 

Pretty clear 2-0 at least Zain.  The aggressive action receives weighted measure.

The other 2 for Yanni is debatable could be or not.  Judgement call.

Freestyle scoring is and has never been an exact science. This match is not unlike several hundred others.

Calvin: You know, I dont think freestyle  is a sport. It's a religion!

Hobbes: Religion?

Calvin: Yeah, all these scrambles are like miracles. You take two scores and add them together and they magically become one new number at the end of the world. No one can say how it happens. You either believe it or you dont!

This rule book is full of things that have to be accepted on faith.

Hobbes: and in a public forum no less. call a lawyer.

Calvin: as a wrestling protestant I should be excused from this.

Edited by GockeS

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2019 at 2:20 PM, Scorenomore said:

I thought it was Zain’s score but after watching for like ten times I noticed the direction of Zain’s feet when the exposure occurs.  When looking at Zain’s feet, it appears that he is lifted off of his feet rather than propelling off of his feet.  Combining that with Yanni’s shifting of his left foot to initiate the move, I think it is definitely Yanni’s score.  

this is the right answer - zain has yianni's right leg on a shelf, but zain's left hand comes free and yianni senses the new leverage and makes his move off of his own left leg and chest wrap. zain doesn't push off at all, his feet start scrambling and he tries to find the mat to brace against the throw and goes stiff during the throw. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/10/2019 at 3:45 PM, lu1979 said:

I fully expect the protest to fail - that won't change the facts that 1) Yianni clearly initiated the move and it should have been scored 2 blue - and 2) the brick should have been summarily rejected and no review should have been done of a scoring move which happened 42 seconds earlier and had scores posted at least 30 seconds earlier - 

If the protest is successful I expect it will be won on the 2nd point - They won't overturn the judges interpretation but they might decide that the judges had no right to review that sequence.

This is also basically where I come out. The call on the mat was at best too favorable to Zain, the call on review was worse, but accepting the challenge at all was the real error. I still don't expect the protest to succeed but think it should. Gimme round 3. Just like I said re: OT vs McKenna, in the immortal words of Rasheed Wallace, Ball Don't Lie and the third match will be the fates explaining the right call in the second.*

 

*Don't take this literally. But literally give us a third match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, tbert said:

1. Zain pressures in and yanks up on leg to expose Yanni.

2. Yanni reacts to the pressure rolling Zain through without stopping or redirecting the action.

 

Pretty clear 2-0 at least Zain.  The aggressive action receives weighted measure.

The other 2 for Yanni is debatable could be or not.  Judgement call.

Freestyle scoring is and has never been an exact science. This match is not unlike several hundred others.

I'd go 2 and 2.

Sure Zain is elevating that leg, but he had been elevating that leg for 20 seconds and Yianni was not exposed yet. Yianni wasn't exposed until the roll was initiated. I don't know why people continue to say Yianni didn't stop the action. That rule is applicable to situations where guys are driving through on their feet (like the first exchange off the whistle). Zain's momentum was stopped for 20 seconds in the crackdown. Furthermore, Yianni clearly also changed Zain's direction. Zain was moving left and then was taken through to his right.

The idea that Zain was trying to initiate a roll over the top is completely inconsistent with the way he wrestled Yianni in all 3 matches and his style in general. He clearly was only attempting to elevate that leg to slowly tip Yianni close enough to his back to expose or enough to create an opening for him to cut across to a double. In the process, his hips came up too high and Yianni took advantage of the situation and took him through for 2.

There's been a lot of bad interpretation of the rules by applying rules from one situation to another where they don't actually apply. If Yianni did not meet the criteria for "stopping" Zain's move, you have eliminated all counter exposures from freestyle wrestling. You will not see a more stopped move than bogging somebody down in a crackdown for 23 seconds. Zain's move was "stopped" (for the purposes of Yianni now being eligible to counter expose) the second they went to the crackdown position and Zain had to start readjusting his shoulder because Yianni had beaten it. Then it becomes a back and forth positioning battle where each wrestler was in the advantage position for a few seconds before the other adjusted. It wasn't a case of continuous improvement, and even if it was, that doesn't mean the move wasn't stopped. The direction and momentum of the initial attack was changed by transitioning to the crackdown position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From Iowa Report poster 255 - "Keep in mind, a point should have been awarded for the denied exposure challenge. I don’t think it was ever done."

Comments?

Edited by headache

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

I'd go 2 and 2.

Sure Zain is elevating that leg, but he had been elevating that leg for 20 seconds and Yianni was not exposed yet. Yianni wasn't exposed until the roll was initiated. I don't know why people continue to say Yianni didn't stop the action. That rule is applicable to situations where guys are driving through on their feet (like the first exchange off the whistle). Zain's momentum was stopped for 20 seconds in the crackdown. Furthermore, Yianni clearly also changed Zain's direction. Zain was moving left and then was taken through to his right.

The idea that Zain was trying to initiate a roll over the top is completely inconsistent with the way he wrestled Yianni in all 3 matches and his style in general. He clearly was only attempting to elevate that leg to slowly tip Yianni close enough to his back to expose or enough to create an opening for him to cut across to a double. In the process, his hips came up too high and Yianni took advantage of the situation and took him through for 2.

There's been a lot of bad interpretation of the rules by applying rules from one situation to another where they don't actually apply. If Yianni did not meet the criteria for "stopping" Zain's move, you have eliminated all counter exposures from freestyle wrestling. You will not see a more stopped move than bogging somebody down in a crackdown for 23 seconds. Zain's move was "stopped" (for the purposes of Yianni now being eligible to counter expose) the second they went to the crackdown position and Zain had to start readjusting his shoulder because Yianni had beaten it. Then it becomes a back and forth positioning battle where each wrestler was in the advantage position for a few seconds before the other adjusted. It wasn't a case of continuous improvement, and even if it was, that doesn't mean the move wasn't stopped. The direction and momentum of the initial attack was changed by transitioning to the crackdown position.

I'm fine with with judgement calls and an official could  very well rule that.  

I, for one, have negated the original shot by Zain.  Without a doubt in my mind it was stopped.  After that is where any number of different scenarios/combinations could of been/or not been called .   Maybe others have said it was continuous, not me.  3  different officials ruled 3 different ways.  None were really wrong as it is what they believed they saw without bias.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, GockeS said:

Calvin: You know, I dont think freestyle  is a sport. It's a religion!

Hobbes: Religion?

Calvin: Yeah, all these scrambles are like miracles. You take two scores and add them together and they magically become one new number at the end of the world. No one can say how it happens. You either believe it or you dont!

This rule book is full of things that have to be accepted on faith.

Hobbes: and in a public forum no less. call a lawyer.

Calvin: as a wrestling protestant I should be excused from this.

POGO " I has met the enemy, and he is us"

 

...I thought you were out of this...lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, headache said:

From Iowa Report poster 255 - "Keep in mind, a point should have been awarded for the denied exposure challenge. I don’t think it was ever done."

Comments?

Im probably not thinking of the correct sequence, but Maybe they never denied an exposure. 

If Zain challenged an exposure, and they took it away, why would they give a point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, headache said:

From Iowa Report poster 255 - "Keep in mind, a point should have been awarded for the denied exposure challenge. I don’t think it was ever done."

Comments?

which exposure are they talking about?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The way I see it there could be a few different applicable scenarios

1) NLWC challenged the scoring of the entire ~0:45 second sequence and the officials accepted that and reviewed it in spite of the final whistle 0:05 rule/guideline.

2) NLWC challenged an exposure in the final seconds and the officials accepted the challenge, but ruled there was no exposure.  Simultaneously the officials reviewed the scoring sequence that happened ~0:45 ago since it was the first break in action and the mat official, judge and chair disagreed.  They re-scored that exchange  2-0 red instead of 2-2 unrelated to the challenge brick.

3) NLWC challenged the scoring sequence from 0:45 ago, but had it rejected for timeliness/match ending, but the officials decided to review it anyway because of the disagreement between the ref, chair, and judge. NLWC didn't need to challenge because it had to be reviewed anyways.

In situation 1 and 3 the point for a lost challenge wouldn't be an issue.  In situation 2 there could be, but wouldn't Cael or Cunningham just say oh if the score was 6-6 we wouldn't have thrown the brick?  I think they would have a point too.  If the officials were fixing their earlier mistake in the scoring outside of the challenge then perhaps they asked NLWC after clearing that up if they still wish to challenge the last ~0:05 of the match?  I really have no idear. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The fact that we, as reasonably knowledgeable fans of the sport, can have ten pages of debate as to the allocation of points reveals the reasons why this sport is dying a slow death. Simply ridiculous - period.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/9/2019 at 11:46 AM, GoNotQuietly said:

All three can't disagree.  If the Referee and the Judge(table) disagree, then the Mat Chairman 'stands' for one of the two.

I think the call is actually pretty tough, but should have been 2-0 Zain based on the rules since he initiated the attack, but a case can be made that Yanni put him into a bridge at the end, which would make it 2-2.

The rules are a lot more vague than people on the internet seem to think they are.

https://unitedworldwrestling.org/sites/default/files/2018-12/wrestling_rules.pdf

Very true, If the judge would have scored 2 red, 2 blue..I guarantee the Chairman would have gone 2 red, 2 blue, but he was handcuffed by the Judge's call. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×