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Just watched again on Flo about 20x. 

Starting at about 1:35 on Flo's HD video: I think Zain would have like to drive Y to his back, but was turned before he could.  For one thing, Z had little control of Y's right leg with his left hand.  Z's legs do straighten, but the direction of the motion is not toward Y's back as one would think.  His legs WERE straightening to drive BUT by 1:30 Z left leg off the mat before it has a chance to push off and Z is now being directed over his own left shoulder and hip by Y. Z right leg goes flying too... but not in the same direction one would expect Z wants it to go.  I think that move is all Y.

You all likely know more than me.  I am a ref, but not International.  I don't really care who wins, as long as we get our best rep.  

AT the same time, I kinda get TBars point about Y leg not extending until late.

Real tough call, some weird stuff happening in the sequence.

Edited by AHamilton

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20 minutes ago, gimpeltf said:

My main point with this is that it's possible that the 2-2 was valid. Valid is different than correct.

If you get pulled over for speeding it's possible that the radar used showed you speeding. But it could be wrong. So the pullover was valid but wrong.

Agree. If you see the action as two separate actions then I think 2-2 would have to be the call. If only one action then I think it is one or the other, 2Red or 2Blue. 

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15 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Just watched again on Flo about 20x. 

Starting at about 1:35 on Flo's HD video: I think Zain would have like to drive Y to his back, but was turned before he could.  For one thing, Z had little control of Y's right leg with his left hand.  Z's legs do straighten, but the direction of the motion is not toward Y's back as one would think.  His legs WERE straightening to drive BUT by 1:30 Z left leg off the mat before it has a chance to push off and Z is now being directed over his own left shoulder and hip by Y. Z right leg goes flying too... but not in the same direction one would expect Z wants it to go.  I think that move is all Y.

You all likely know more than me.  I am a ref, but not International.  I don't really care who wins, as long as we get our best rep.  

AT the same time, I kinda get TBars point about Y leg not extending until late.

Real tough call, some weird stuff happening in the sequence.

I think it's fair to say that it was a tough call. Could be 2-0 in favor of Zain or in favor of Yianni. It could have been 2-2. But what's NOT tough is the determination that the brick was late so there should have been no review. Thus the 8-6 score in favor of Yianni on the board when the buzzer sounded should not have been disturbed.

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i just want a formal explanation. if the answer is that a post-stoppage officials' conference was required, since the judges did not properly agree (rather than acknowledging a late brick) that's probably a satisfactory answer that will leave me disappointed. an error on the scoreboard sucks, but ... as Ian Miller knows, sometimes life sucks. I don't want to be on the wrong side of a situation like that but if that's what it is, that's what it is. An in-match scoring (or score-posting) error is bad luck for Yianni; accepting an out-of-time challenge is something that can and should be subject to protest.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Flo posted a slow motion high def video. I think it confirms your suspicion that Yianni did not push off his left foot. When you push off to gain leverage your leg straightens out,

um, no it's his hips... they straighten out

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2 hours ago, justafan said:

The right thing happened.A review was scored and the match ended.You can argue about how it was scored but that is a judgement call and those don't get reversed.The confusion started when the chair went 2 and 2 and it was put on the scoreboard incorrectly.The Chair needed to call a conference to discuss the points in which he didn't therefore procedure wasn't followed.

so then, the right thing DIDN"T happen.

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9 minutes ago, ugarte said:

i just want a formal explanation. if the answer is that a post-stoppage officials' conference was required, since the judges did not properly agree (rather than acknowledging a late brick) that's probably a satisfactory answer that will leave me disappointed. an error on the scoreboard sucks, but ... as Ian Miller knows, sometimes life sucks. I don't want to be on the wrong side of a situation like that but if that's what it is, that's what it is. An in-match scoring (or score-posting) error is bad luck for Yianni; accepting an out-of-time challenge is something that can and should be subject to protest.

Good points, I have a similar question.

Could anyone help me with the following question, I really don't know and this seems like an important point in all of this and I haven't seen it discussed on here:

If a conference is required because of the scoring error - does anyone know when that conference is supposed to occur - meaning, would they stop the action as soon as they realized they need a conference regardless of the wrestling position even if one (or both) of the wrestlers is in a potential scoring position? Or do they avoid stopping the match for the conference in the middle of a potential scoring sequence and wait until there is a natural stoppage or neither wrestler is in a potentially imminent scoring situation?

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oh there are several who think the right thing happened.

again. i dont expect the outcome to change.

but some type of bad time needs to be explored. something... b/c knowing  the score is the whole reason we have a scoreboard.

if it's not correct, it should be corrected asap. not 45 seconds later.

 

and yes we can make change. 2 years ago, ppl were griping that dake and taylor were tired and that's why they lost, so now we have final x to appease those people.

 

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9 minutes ago, GockeS said:

oh there are several who think the right thing happened.

again. i dont expect the outcome to change.

but some type of bad time needs to be explored. something... b/c knowing  the score is the whole reason we have a scoreboard.

if it's not correct, it should be corrected asap. not 45 seconds later.

 

and yes we can make change. 2 years ago, ppl were griping that dake and taylor were tired and that's why they lost, so now we have final x to appease those people.

 

so you arent concerned the right  (fair)  score you are concerned about the refs screwed up and shouldnt be able to correct their mistake because it didnt happen when you felt it should happen.... sounds real Cornellish

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55 minutes ago, tbert said:

so you arent concerned the right  (fair)  score you are concerned about the refs screwed up and shouldnt be able to correct their mistake because it didnt happen when you felt it should happen.... sounds real Cornellish

you forget. i cheer for the REAL Big Red. The Huskers. 

not sure where you think i dont think the score should be corrected. I think it should be corrected immediately... so everyone is on a level playing field.

but yes, according to YOU the right (fair) score happened. but there are many who don't. 

I am concerned that the refs will screw someone else...YET AGAIN... in the future, b/c of a lack of a bad time situation in the book.

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2 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

My main point with this is that it's possible that the 2-2 was valid. Valid is different than correct.

If you get pulled over for speeding it's possible that the radar used showed you speeding. But it could be wrong. So the pullover was valid but wrong.

2 and 2 can easily be called in that situation.The issue is the Chair going 2 and 2 when that wasn't offered and it was put on the board.The chair should've called a conference.Once that 2 and 2 was put on the board Cody can challenge at anytime because the score was wrong.

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

you forget. i cheer for the REAL Big Red. The Huskers. 

not sure where you think i dont think the score should be corrected. I think it should be corrected immediately... so everyone is on a level playing field.

but yes, according to YOU the right (fair) score happened. but there are many who don't. 

I am concerned that the refs will screw someone else...YET AGAIN... in the future, b/c of a lack of a bad time situation in the book.

I encourage you to read the UWW rules.  There is no bad time.  It may suck in this situation.

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1 minute ago, tbert said:

I encourage you to read the UWW rules.  There is no bad time.  It may suck in this situation.

ok... you refuse to listen.

I KNOW, there is no bad time.

perhaps open your ears and eyes this time...

 

WE NEED TO ADD A BAD TIME RULE so this doesn't happen again.

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

ok... you refuse to listen.

I KNOW, there is no bad time.

perhaps open your ears and eyes this time...

 

WE NEED TO ADD A BAD TIME RULE so this doesn't happen again.

can you speak french... go present your case..  

there is none.  

life is not fair, get a helmet.

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

so then, the right thing DIDN"T happen.

I'm not talking about how Tucci scored it.Im talking about it being reviewed it was gonna be reviewed regardless of what scenario you would like to choose.Once the Chair went 2 and 2 it was gonna end up in a Tucci review.And that scoring situation was gonna be scored again by Tucci.Not sure how people are in the camp that you can't go back that far when that scoring situation was what caused created the confusion.If your saying Cody can't throw the brick that late then you don't understand the rules the 5 seconds is irrelevant when the scoreboard is wrong.The Chair can't decide 2 and 2 on his own without a conference.You don't think the right thing happened because you want more time on the clock when that isn't a current option.If your for a rule change ok that's your opinion but in the current rule set Zain is the winner

Edited by justafan

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This is such a strange situation.  None of the three officials scored the sequence the same.  When that happens, I think the action needs to be stopped immediately.  At the very least, no points should go on the scoreboard.  Putting two and two on the board when two of the three officials did not score it that way simply should not have happened.  That is a gargantuan mistake.  If I had to guess, I'd say whomever was running the scoreboard thought "Well, two of the three had blue scoring so I'll split the difference."  You simply can't have wrestlers wrestling when the score on the scoreboard does not reflect the points actually awarded or not awarded by two of the three officials.  I do think Yianni was done an injustice here, but just as easily, Zain, thinking he was losing 8-6, could have been overly aggressive and given up points.  That would be 100 percent just as bad, but it probably wouldn't have come up since it would have been 10-6 and the challenge wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match.  

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2 minutes ago, jmachinder said:

This is such a strange situation.  None of the three officials scored the sequence the same.  When that happens, I think the action needs to be stopped immediately.  At the very least, no points should go on the scoreboard.  Putting two and two on the board when two of the three officials did not score it that way simply should not have happened.  That is a gargantuan mistake.  If I had to guess, I'd say whomever was running the scoreboard thought "Well, two of the three had blue scoring so I'll split the difference."  You simply can't have wrestlers wrestling when the score on the scoreboard does not reflect the points actually awarded or not awarded by two of the three officials.  I do think Yianni was done an injustice here, but just as easily, Zain, thinking he was losing 8-6, could have been overly aggressive and given up points.  That would be 100 percent just as bad, but it probably wouldn't have come up since it would have been 10-6 and the challenge wouldn't have changed the outcome of the match.  

common sense has no place here

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2 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Just watched again on Flo about 20x. 

Starting at about 1:35 on Flo's HD video: I think Zain would have like to drive Y to his back, but was turned before he could.  For one thing, Z had little control of Y's right leg with his left hand.  Z's legs do straighten, but the direction of the motion is not toward Y's back as one would think.  His legs WERE straightening to drive BUT by 1:30 Z left leg off the mat before it has a chance to push off and Z is now being directed over his own left shoulder and hip by Y. Z right leg goes flying too... but not in the same direction one would expect Z wants it to go.  I think that move is all Y.

You all likely know more than me.  I am a ref, but not International.  I don't really care who wins, as long as we get our best rep.  

AT the same time, I kinda get TBars point about Y leg not extending until late.

Real tough call, some weird stuff happening in the sequence.

 

AHamilton, since you are a ref let me ask a question that is in conjunction with a question asked above. 

Take the brick toss timing completely out of the equation. Let's even imagine a scenario mid match and there isn't even a challenge, but there is a discrepancy in the score where the three judges all have a different score. 

In a situation where you have the ref offer 2Blue, the side judge offer 2Red, and the Chair declare 2Red2Blue you then obviously need a conference. I think everyone on both sides agree that this is the case. I don't want to presume how you would answer, but you would agree that this would require a conference, right? 

When would that conference occur? Naturally when there is a stoppage, right? So if this were to have occurred starting at 2:50 instead of 0:50, and the action were stopped at 2:00 due to inability to improve instead of at 0:00 because the time expired, wouldn't there have been a review of the scoring at 2:00 to determine which of the three options was the correct score? 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

Nobody thinks the right thing happened. The only questions are what should have happened and what should happen next.

I don't think the right thing happened only due to the Chair scoring 2-2. That was the big mistake. What happened at the end I think had to happen, meaning they had to go back and review that exchange and get the correct score out of it. They had three different scores so that had to happen, brick challenge or no brick challenge. This is why I think Koll's challenge after the fact won't fly. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, RJChicago said:

Good points, I have a similar question.

Could anyone help me with the following question, I really don't know and this seems like an important point in all of this and I haven't seen it discussed on here:

If a conference is required because of the scoring error - does anyone know when that conference is supposed to occur - meaning, would they stop the action as soon as they realized they need a conference regardless of the wrestling position even if one (or both) of the wrestlers is in a potential scoring position? Or do they avoid stopping the match for the conference in the middle of a potential scoring sequence and wait until there is a natural stoppage or neither wrestler is in a potentially imminent scoring situation?

That's the right question. I think that since both wrestlers were in a potential scoring position they have to let it play out and review after stoppage. 

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