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26 minutes ago, NJDan said:

It's possible that the review would have occurred after the clock went to 0:00. It's also possible that the ref would have called a stalemate after seeing the brick. But neither scenario justifies allowing for a review where the brick was thrown 30-40 seconds after the score went up.

Also: is the chairman allowed to stop the match to review a call that was not challenged? I thought the chairman could not review without a challenge (though I believe such a thing is done in college wrestling).

 

 

I don't think the chairmen can stop the match for a review of his own accord.  He can stop the match for a challenge review but that would have to be initiated by the wrestler's coach and he can stop the match to consult with the referee and judge without a brick being thrown.  He is, in fact, required to as for such a consultation in the event of any flagrant violation of the rules.  I think in the past the chairman was allowed to watch video as part of the consultation, but that is not allowed anymore and the consultation would have to take place without video.  The chairmen can see the video and consult with the review panel during a review.  Below are some quotes from the UWW rule book about the chairman's responsibilities with respect to consultations.  

"He may also interrupt the bout if a serious scoring mistake is made by the referee and/or the judge. In such case, he must ask for a consultation."

"In the event of any disagreement between the referee and the judge, the mat chairman must make a decision in favor of one or the other of the wrestlers; he is not allowed to give a different opinion, except if he calls for a consultation and obtains majority."

"In the event of any flagrant violation of the Rules, the mat chairman must call for a consultation."

"The mat chairman is not entitled to influence or change a decision if the referee and judge are in agreement except if he calls for a consultation or after a challenge."

So it wouldn't be the referee stopping the bout for the consultation, but rather the mat chairman.  It doesn't say the timing about when that should take place but the only other place in the rules where it talks about the chairman stopping wrestling (for a challenge) it says he should do it when the "action is back to neutral."  Maybe that happened at 0:00 since I am not sure about your stalemate claim.  The UWW rulebook does not mention that term anywhere, and the action did continue and referee did not call stalemate or its UWW equivalent.  So the idea that they were locked in some stalemate unable to advance position is just incorrect or are you saying that the wrestlers would have stopped trying to score if they saw the brick and a stalemate type situation would have occurred?  

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A conference does not initiate a review. A conference is between the three officials working the match, getting together to discuss the situation. The three officials have nothing to do with the review, and the two man review jury has nothing to do with a conference. They only engage when there is a challenge and review. I’m not arguing one side or the other but I believe this is where Koll may have a leg to stand on in a protest. The brick was thrown well after the time allows for the debatable sequence. They brick was for the last sequence, again for the situation at the end of the match. We saw that on the monitor. There was never a conference between the three officials on the debatable situation. Again not arguing for or against, but that could be the point in favor of Koll/Yianni. COULD be 

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3 hours ago, justafan said:

I'm not talking about how Tucci scored it.Im talking about it being reviewed it was gonna be reviewed regardless of what scenario you would like to choose.Once the Chair went 2 and 2 it was gonna end up in a Tucci review.And that scoring situation was gonna be scored again by Tucci.Not sure how people are in the camp that you can't go back that far when that scoring situation was what caused created the confusion.If your saying Cody can't throw the brick that late then you don't understand the rules the 5 seconds is irrelevant when the scoreboard is wrong.The Chair can't decide 2 and 2 on his own without a conference.You don't think the right thing happened because you want more time on the clock when that isn't a current option.If your for a rule change ok that's your opinion but in the current rule set Zain is the winner

i agree completely. i have been saying for quite some time we need a bad time rule.

so that this never happens again.

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4 hours ago, tbert said:

can you speak french... go present your case..  

there is none.  

life is not fair, get a helmet.

ok, you almost have your head out of your ***

now when you get it out, make sure to wipe the *(*** from your eyes and ears.

I KNOW.

lets change the rule. I bet YOU wanted final x so dake and taylor wouldn't be tired.

so guess what, we changed the rule.

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

ok, you almost have your head out of your ***

now when you get it out, make sure to wipe the *(*** from your eyes and ears.

I KNOW.

lets change the rule. I bet YOU wanted final x so dake and taylor wouldn't be tired.

so guess what, we changed the rule.

rule is not changing they are not adding bad time.  It took them 50 years to get the clock going the right direction....   No I didnt want final x in its current drama.   

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Regardless,   Koll has found a captive ear in Derlan who embarrassingly, knows far less about freestyle than most on this forum.  

So the root cause appears to be some type of pissing contests between Koll and Tucci..    Koll calls for sanctions on him. 

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actually, the clock going up was better.

maybe now irrelevant b/c of the tenths of seconds being used on the display, but going up, the match was over when the clock hit 6 min.

when it gets to 0, there are still tenths left.

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4 hours ago, tbert said:

common sense has no place here

what the hell are you talking about?

that post is exactly what i have been trying to pound into your head for 10 pages.

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

That possibility makes no sense to me. If the officials need to huddle to figure the correct score, they shouldn't be doing it while the match is continuing. They should stop. Fix the score, Then continue. I know I have seen refs stop a match when the score is wrong.

 

 

this is exactly right.

but some people think common sense is lacking

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4 hours ago, gimpeltf said:

Again, 2-2 isn't necessarily 1 call. It might be and it might be 2 calls. Given that both mat officials saw different initiation of actions it can be viewed as separate calls requiring separate confirmations. I'm not sure I think that applies here - I'm just stating a theoretical possibility.

Doesn't apply to this situation

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There is also a possibility that the scorecards were different at the end of the bout.  The judge and chairman both keep score and with all three officials scoring the disputed sequence differently and in a way incongruent with the rules, there is a good chance that either or both of their scorecards did not match the public scoreboard.  In the event that their scorecards do not match the chairman's is the official match result.  If the official score of the bout was not the scoreboard the 0:05 rule should not come into play. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

A conference does not initiate a review. A conference is between the three officials working the match, getting together to discuss the situation. The three officials have nothing to do with the review, and the two man review jury has nothing to do with a conference. They only engage when there is a challenge and review. I’m not arguing one side or the other but I believe this is where Koll may have a leg to stand on in a protest. The brick was thrown well after the time allows for the debatable sequence. They brick was for the last sequence, again for the situation at the end of the match. We saw that on the monitor. There was never a conference between the three officials on the debatable situation. Again not arguing for or against, but that could be the point in favor of Koll/Yianni. COULD be 

The brick was for the 2 and 2 call.It came out 40 seconds after the situation was scored for many reasons.Cody and Cael see the ref go 2 and the judge go 2 the other way with :42 to go theyre coaching there guy thru a scramble position they don't see the Chair  go 2 and 2  and are expecting someone to get 2 and  with about :20 to go they realize the score says 8-6 and it went 2 and 2 they start talking in the corner and with :03 to go Cody throws the brick once he realizes the score is wrong.The Chair has to call a conference to discuss the situation he can't award 2 and 2 on his own.And for those saying the brick was to late that's irrelevant because the scoreboard was wrong and a challenge can come anytime the score is wrong.At no time during the last :58 did action stop which would allow for a stoppage.Since action continued for the entire :58 the whole sequence needs to be scored again.If the Chair calls a conference either corner can challenge the outcome. The Chair didn't call a conference and awarded the points therefore a challenge can come at anytime since the scoreboard was wrong.That scoring situation was gonna end up with a Tucci review no matter what once the Chair went 2 and 2.People can argue how Tucci scored it but that's a judgement call and those don't get changed 

Edited by justafan

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9 minutes ago, justafan said:

The brick was for the 2 and 2 call.It came out 40 seconds after the situation was scored for many reasons.Cody and Cael see the ref go 2 and the judge go 2 the other way with :42 to go theyre coaching there guy thru a scramble position they don't see the Chair  go 2 and 2  and are expecting someone to get 2 and  with about :20 to go they realize the score says 8-6 and it went 2 and 2 they start talking in the corner and with :03 to go Cody throws the brick once he realizes the score is wrong.The Chair has to call a conference to discuss the situation he can't award 2 and 2 on his own.And for those saying the brick was to late that's irrelevant because the scoreboard was wrong and a challenge can come anytime the score is wrong.At no time during the last :58 did action stop which would allow for a stoppage.Since action continued for the entire :58 the whole sequence needs to be scored again.If the Chair calls a conference either corner can challenge the outcome. The Chair didn't call a conference and awarded the points therefore a challenge can come at anytime since the scoreboard was wrong.That scoring situation was gonna end up with a Tucci review no matter what once the Chair went 2 and 2.People can argue how Tucci scored it but that's a judgement call and those don't get changed 

Where did the 03 seconds remaining come from?

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49 minutes ago, GockeS said:

what the hell are you talking about?

that post is exactly what i have been trying to pound into your head for 10 pages.

better yet,  maybe this international wrestling is a bit too much for you to comprehend,  can I maybe suggest a new sport, possibly tic tac toe or lawn darts?  I may take you a few weeks but i am confident you will master those rules.

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47 minutes ago, tbert said:

better yet,  maybe this international wrestling is a bit too much for you to comprehend,  can I maybe suggest a new sport, possibly tic tac toe or lawn darts?  I may take you a few weeks but i am confident you will master those rules.

i would suggest you are too drawn up in your own hatred of a man you dont even know... and have begun to project it onto me.

I said exactly what that poster said for 10 pages... you villify me

and tell him that his common sense post is rare on this topic.

 

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4 hours ago, NJDan said:

Why do you say they had to wait until 0:00. Z and Y were at loggerheads. A stalemate could have been called at any time.

But a stalemate was never called. Had a stalemate been called the review would have happened at that time. But no stalemate was called, hence the next natural stoppage was at 0:00. The review had to wait for stoppage, which coincidentally was at 0:00. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

But a stalemate was never called. Had a stalemate been called the review would have happened at that time. But no stalemate was called, hence the next natural stoppage was at 0:00. The review had to wait for stoppage, which coincidentally was at 0:00. 

Are you being purposefully dense? I said it could have been called -- and should have been called-- had there been confusion about the score. You don't let the clock run out and THEN change the score.

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1 hour ago, justafan said:

The brick was for the 2 and 2 call.It came out 40 seconds after the situation was scored for many reasons.Cody and Cael see the ref go 2 and the judge go 2 the other way with :42 to go theyre coaching there guy thru a scramble position they don't see the Chair  go 2 and 2  and are expecting someone to get 2 and  with about :20 to go they realize the score says 8-6 and it went 2 and 2 they start talking in the corner and with :03 to go Cody throws the brick once he realizes the score is wrong.The Chair has to call a conference to discuss the situation he can't award 2 and 2 on his own.And for those saying the brick was to late that's irrelevant because the scoreboard was wrong and a challenge can come anytime the score is wrong.At no time during the last :58 did action stop which would allow for a stoppage.Since action continued for the entire :58 the whole sequence needs to be scored again.If the Chair calls a conference either corner can challenge the outcome. The Chair didn't call a conference and awarded the points therefore a challenge can come at anytime since the scoreboard was wrong.That scoring situation was gonna end up with a Tucci review no matter what once the Chair went 2 and 2.People can argue how Tucci scored it but that's a judgement call and those don't get changed 

 

For the final score to have been 6-6, Tucci AND the side judge had to score that sequence 2Red. Not that you are saying this (but for others), But Tucci didn't screw Yianni and Tucci would not have by himself been able to make it 6-6. You need 2 out of 3 to make that happen, in this case Tucci AND the side judge. 

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2 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Are you being purposefully dense? I said it could have been called -- and should have been called-- had there been confusion about the score. You don't let the clock run out and THEN change the score.

But it wasn't called. So what are you then left with? You must then still review the wrong score. 

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