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53 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Even if that is true, and I don't know that it is, then challenge it at the time under the rules.  Your argument is just as procedural as the one Cornell is making.

Just think of how this scenario played out and tell me how it's a just outcome.  Yianni wrestled the entire last minute thinking (along with everybody else) that he was defending a lead, and now they want to say "ACTUALLY, you were losing the whole time.  PSYCHE!"

Let me ask you a question, Vak. Yianni came very close to getting Zain's back exposed late in period 3 of the match in question. He is very close to scoring there. Do you think he said to himself that it wasn't a big deal to try to get those 2 exposure points because he knew he was leading and didn't need them? Or do you think he tried to get them? I mean, he was very close to getting them, you don't think that happened without him putting in a maximum effort there, do you? 

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5 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Let me ask you a question, Vak. Yianni came very close to getting Zain's back exposed late in period 3 of the match in question. He is very close to scoring there. Do you think he said to himself that it wasn't a big deal to try to get those 2 exposure points because he knew he was leading and didn't need them? Or do you think he tried to get them? I mean, he was very close to getting them, you don't think that happened without him putting in a maximum effort there, do you? 

What risk did Yianni have to take to try and score those pts though? He did not compromise position to look for that turn.That is one small part of the last moments of the match. Otherwise, Yianni  did not risk position to try and get to any offense at all. Turned out, the only thing he needed was a reversal. Maybe when he had Zain compromised, he could have sought control instead of a turn there.  To act like the scoreboard and being ahead/behind did not matter in the last part of the match is crazy. You switch who's winning and who's losing on that scoreboard, and it guarantees different action out of the competitors. 

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14 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Let me ask you a question, Vak. Yianni came very close to getting Zain's back exposed late in period 3 of the match in question. He is very close to scoring there. Do you think he said to himself that it wasn't a big deal to try to get those 2 exposure points because he knew he was leading and didn't need them? Or do you think he tried to get them? I mean, he was very close to getting them, you don't think that happened without him putting in a maximum effort there, do you? 

so you are saying he knew he was behind so he wanted to score?

this whole...the rules say you shouldn't stall and have to wrestle 100% is bogus.

should a hockey team play the whole game w/o a goalie? b/c if they have a goalie, they aren't trying 100% to score?

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

Even if that is true, and I don't know that it is, then challenge it at the time under the rules.  Your argument is just as procedural as the one Cornell is making.

Just think of how this scenario played out and tell me how it's a just outcome.  Yianni wrestled the entire last minute thinking (along with everybody else) that he was defending a lead, and now they want to say "ACTUALLY, you were losing the whole time.  PSYCHE!"

It is the case 2R, 2B was not an option for the chair to make. "In case of a disagreement, the mat chairman makes the decision. This decision, in which he must decide between the opposing opinions of the referee and judge, obliges the mat chairman to vote in all cases for one or the other of the views given."  One or the other not both. It's pretty clear.

Yianni didn't wrestle the entire last minute thinking he was winning.  The score went up at 0:35.  He wrestled about half a minute in a scramble thinking he was winning.  I'd complain too, but I'm also not sure how much differently that sequence would play out if the score were accurately reported, a stop were requested by the chair for a consultation, or a brick was thrown by either corner by the 0:30 mark.  

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1 hour ago, brewland said:

What risk did Yianni have to take to try and score those pts though? He did not compromise position to look for that turn.That is one small part of the last moments of the match. Otherwise, Yianni  did not risk position to try and get to any offense at all. Turned out, the only thing he needed was a reversal. Maybe when he had Zain compromised, he could have sought control instead of a turn there.  To act like the scoreboard and being ahead/behind did not matter in the last part of the match is crazy. You switch who's winning and who's losing on that scoreboard, and it guarantees different action out of the competitors. 

I am not saying it did not matter, I am only asking if Vak thought Yianni was attempting to improve or score. I watched that scramble many times and it looks like both are trying to expose the other. Of course in practice the guy who thinks he is leading might wrestle differently than if he is behind. Might or might not make a difference.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Let me ask you a question, Vak. Yianni came very close to getting Zain's back exposed late in period 3 of the match in question. He is very close to scoring there. Do you think he said to himself that it wasn't a big deal to try to get those 2 exposure points because he knew he was leading and didn't need them? Or do you think he tried to get them? I mean, he was very close to getting them, you don't think that happened without him putting in a maximum effort there, do you? 

Yes, his focus is mostly on defending and preventing himself from exposing, getting an exposure on Zain is nice, but doesn't do anything for him as far as he understands the score to be.

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1 hour ago, Fishbane said:

It is the case 2R, 2B was not an option for the chair to make. "In case of a disagreement, the mat chairman makes the decision. This decision, in which he must decide between the opposing opinions of the referee and judge, obliges the mat chairman to vote in all cases for one or the other of the views given."  One or the other not both. It's pretty clear.

Yianni didn't wrestle the entire last minute thinking he was winning.  The score went up at 0:35.  He wrestled about half a minute in a scramble thinking he was winning.  I'd complain too, but I'm also not sure how much differently that sequence would play out if the score were accurately reported, a stop were requested by the chair for a consultation, or a brick was thrown by either corner by the 0:30 mark.  

Flo has an interesting interview with Stieber today. They asked him about a potential stoppage there in this match and he says "If they'd have stopped it at any time in there that would have been really bad". That is around the 17 minute mark.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6517160-logan-stieber-on-retirement-decision-future-yianni-zain

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6 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

Yes, his focus is mostly on defending and preventing himself from exposing, getting an exposure on Zain is nice, but doesn't do anything for him as far as he understands the score to be.

Ok. Follow up question. In Koll's interview with Dernlan he twice (maybe 3x) states that if they stopped the match at say 45 to 50 seconds remaining to review (and he uses nearly identical language both times) to state that no one in the crowd or watching believes/believed the way those two were going at it that if they stopped the match and re started it that there would not be further scoring. 

Do you believe he is correct on this? That if they stopped the match and re started it, using Koll's own words, that the way these two were going at it that there is no way there wouldn't have been more scoring? He is essentially saying 100%^ there would have been more scoring. Do you agree with that assertion from Koll. 

Edited by TBar1977

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3 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Ok. Follow up question. In Koll's interview with Dernlan he twice (maybe 3x) states that if they stopped the match at say 45 to 50 seconds remaining to review (and he uses nearly identical language both times) to state that no one in the crowd or watching believes/believed the way those two were going at it that if they stopped the match and re started it that there would not be further scoring. 

Do you believe he is correct on this? That if they stopped the match and re started it, using Koll's own words, that the way these two were going at it that there is no way there wouldn't have been more scoring? He is essentially saying 100%^ there would have been more scoring. Do you agree with that assertion from Koll. 

No, I don't.  Instead of playing this little game, why don't you just come out and ask your assuredly unbiased endgame question?

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10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Flo has an interesting interview with Stieber today. They asked him about a potential stoppage there in this match and he says "If they'd have stopped it at any time in there that would have been really bad". That is around the 17 minute mark.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6517160-logan-stieber-on-retirement-decision-future-yianni-zain

Logan also says that 2-2 was the correct call. His comment about a stoppage being bad was in the absence of a brick.

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2 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

No, I don't.  Instead of playing this little game, why don't you just come out and ask your assuredly unbiased endgame question?

I think your opinion is the correct one. I think Koll's statement, made twice, that further scoring is an absolute given, is a bit of grandstanding done to embellish the need for another match. It is easily proved that further scoring is not guaranteed because these two did in fact go at it "like they did" for the remainder of the match and, as a point of fact, there was no further scoring. 

I point this out to illustrate that Koll is attempting to throw anything and everything against the wall to see what sticks. I would do that too, so I get it. 

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11 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Ok. Follow up question. In Koll's interview with Dernlan he twice (maybe 3x) states that if they stopped the match at say 45 to 50 seconds remaining to review (and he uses nearly identical language both times) to state that no one in the crowd or watching believes/believed the way those two were going at it that if they stopped the match and re started it that there would not be further scoring. 

Do you believe he is correct on this? That if they stopped the match and re started it, using Koll's own words, that the way these two were going at it that there is no way there wouldn't have been more scoring? He is essentially saying 100%^ there would have been more scoring. Do you agree with that assertion from Koll. 

i totally agree there would have been more scoring. BUT, we go from there KNOWING the score. and each wrestler has a chance to redress the outcome... 

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5 minutes ago, NJDan said:

Logan also says that 2-2 was the correct call. His comment about a stoppage being bad was in the absence of a brick.

Actually, he doesn't mention the brick until the end and I think he does so relative to a challenge, not to a stoppage at 0:50. And as far as the score is concerned he states "I think the 2-2, 2-0 its a judgment".

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5 minutes ago, GockeS said:

i totally agree there would have been more scoring. BUT, we go from there KNOWING the score. and each wrestler has a chance to redress the outcome... 

But the two wrestled and, as a point of fact, there was no further scoring. 

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Flo has an interesting interview with Stieber today. They asked him about a potential stoppage there in this match and he says "If they'd have stopped it at any time in there that would have been really bad". That is around the 17 minute mark.

https://www.flowrestling.org/video/6517160-logan-stieber-on-retirement-decision-future-yianni-zain

Yeah I mostly agree.  Clearly action was still going on and they weren't locked in some position where neither was going to advance.  Everything was on a knife edge.  Had a brick appeared maybe the chair/ref balances getting the scoring challenge resolved with time remaining vs letting the action continue and they find a few seconds where they are "neutral" to stop the match, but any stoppage would have been somewhat unnatural. Or maybe the wrestlers stop trying to actively turn each other to see the resolution of the challenge. Neither of those situations seems all that likely. 

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I think your opinion is the correct one. I think Koll's statement, made twice, that further scoring is an absolute given, is a bit of grandstanding done to embellish the need for another match. It is easily proved that further scoring is not guaranteed because these two did in fact go at it "like they did" for the remainder of the match and, as a point of fact, there was no further scoring. 

I point this out to illustrate that Koll is attempting to throw anything and everything against the wall to see what sticks. I would do that too, so I get it. 

I agree Koll is likely grandstanding and throwing everything the wall he can, which is what all coaches do in this situation, since his athlete is the disadvantaged one.  He is an underdog in any proceeding trying to get a third match.  Coaches grandstand.  Koll grandstands, Tom Ryan grandstands, the Brands brothers grandstand, and Cael grandstands.  

To me it seems like the right result by the rules and fairness should be a third match where I would pick Zain to win, as I did at the US Open.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Actually, he doesn't mention the brick until the end and I think he does so relative to a challenge, not to a stoppage at 0:50. And as far as the score is concerned he states "I think the 2-2, 2-0 its a judgment".

I am not sure what's worse, your reading comprehension or your listening comprehension.

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13 minutes ago, NJDan said:

I am not sure what's worse, your reading comprehension or your listening comprehension.

You don't like direct quotes? He said 3 or 4 different things about the score. I only quoted one, I grant that. It's a crazy sequence. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

But the two wrestled and, as a point of fact, there was no further scoring. 

so you think that after a break in the match they would put them back in the same situation?

someone was telling the rest of us we dont know the rules...

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38 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You don't like direct quotes? He said 3 or 4 different things about the score. I only quoted one, I grant that. It's a crazy sequence. 

Dont offend them with facts or correct score as anything short of someone granting Yanni a world team birth is not acceptable.

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9 minutes ago, tbert said:

Dont offend them with facts or correct score as anything short of someone granting Yanni a world team birth is not acceptable.

we forgot... sportsmanship and fairplay mean nothing to you, when you can stick it to your imaginary enemy koll.

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