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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is the issue. The refs calling the match had time to calmly review the sequence and THEY decided it was 2 for red and 0 for blue, and then adjusted the score according to what they deemed the correct scoring for the match. 6-6 Red over Blue

The refs calling the match made this call. What are we gonna do here, go all Russian and have panels make calls after the fact? I thought wrestling community just wanted to get the call right? The refs gave us the call they deemed right. Now because Koll knows he can't challenge the actual call (because of its subjectivity) his whole protest is centered around the timing of the brick throw. The scoring is more important than the timing of the brick throw. And if the brick throw at the end of the match is too late, then what does this say about a Monday Morning Protest? That's way, way too late. That won't fly. 

Can we agree that the rules must be followed? If the rules are followed, YD is the winner.

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59 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is the issue. The refs calling the match had time to calmly review the sequence and THEY decided it was 2 for red and 0 for blue, and then adjusted the score according to what they deemed the correct scoring for the match. 6-6 Red over Blue

The refs calling the match made this call. What are we gonna do here, go all Russian and have panels make calls after the fact? I thought wrestling community just wanted to get the call right? The refs gave us the call they deemed right. Now because Koll knows he can't challenge the actual call (because of its subjectivity) his whole protest is centered around the timing of the brick throw. The scoring is more important than the timing of the brick throw. And if the brick throw at the end of the match is too late, then what does this say about a Monday Morning Protest? That's way, way too late. That won't fly. 

My point was that there is uncertainty regarding whether that was exposure or not - it was in response to a statement that it was factual that it was not.  

Sure, we want to get the call right but at times doing so has wider implications. If anything, this sequence illustrates the importance of the timing of the challenge.  Yianni's urgency changes dramatically over the final 40-50 seconds of the match if he believes he is losing on criteria rather than if he's winning 8-6.  There were people intimately close to the action that stated other highly respected referees were disgusted with the mat judges ruling.  

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22 minutes ago, GockeS said:

yanni was on his A** for several seconds..both guys hanging out, but during this yanni posts his left leg up... and then pushes hard.

There were two conceivable ways for Yianni to score in this exchange. 

1) He controlled Zain by blocking him in a position considered completed.

I don’t think that’s the case here because Zain was very close to scoring and was working on doing so. Yianni appears to me to have merely rolled through Zain’s hold.

2) Yianni conducted the action on a continuous basis.  

Unfortunately I have no idea what that means.

 

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13 minutes ago, Katie said:

There were two conceivable ways for Yianni to score in this exchange. 

1) He controlled Zain by blocking him in a position considered completed.

I don’t think that’s the case here because Zain was very close to scoring and was working on doing so. Yianni appears to me to have merely rolled through Zain’s hold.

2) Yianni conducted the action on a continuous basis.  

Unfortunately I have no idea what that means.

 

You don't seem to understand how FS is scored - in this case Yianni stopped Zain's attack without being scored on - Then it is obvious that Yianni initiated the roll through that took Zain across his back for exposure - just watch the clip and focus on what happens to Zain's body - he get extended ( legs go straight) and gets rolled over his back - that should be an easy call for a FS ref - 2 blue 0 red.

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17 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

You don't seem to understand how FS is scored - in this case Yianni stopped Zain's attack without being scored on - Then it is obvious that Yianni initiated the roll through that took Zain across his back for exposure - just watch the clip and focus on what happens to Zain's body - he get extended ( legs go straight) and gets rolled over his back - that should be an easy call for a FS ref - 2 blue 0 red.

The rules do not speak of defensive wrestlers initiating roll throughs.  They speak of defensive wrestlers controlling an offensive wrestler by putting him in a "bridge position' -- ie, a position considered completed. 

So I guess I'm not understanding how Yianni put Zain in a bridge position.  It looked to me like Zain was close to scoring on Yianni and was working on doing so when Yianni rolled through.  At what point was Zain in a bridge position?

The only other way for Yianni to have scored is to have "conducted the action on a continuous basis."  But like I said before, I don't know what that means.

Edited by Katie

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Just now, Katie said:

I guess I'm not understanding how Yianni controlled Zain by putting him in a "bridge position' -- ie, a position considered completed.  it looked to me like Zain was close to scoring on Yianni and was working on doing so when Yianni rolled through.  At what point was Zain in a bridge position?

It is not about putting him in a bridge position.  Yianni initiated the roll through.  The roll through exposed Zain's back.  That is what count.  The reason I suggested you look at what happened to Zain's body position as Yianni hits the roll through is because it makes it obvious who initiated the move.  I am still stunned that the mat judges could get this so wrong on review. By the way there is no concept of "control" in FS as there is in folkstyle.  A lot of the scoring depends on determining who initiated a particular action.  Many times that is very difficult to see.  I am of the opinion that this time it wasn't that hard to determine. To me it is obvious that Yianni initiated the roll through.  Unfortunately that mat judges somehow saw it differently. 

I also have a hard time accepting that a review brick can be thrown that far after a sequence and still be accepted.  I have seen enough FS to know that if that happened in an international tournament the brick would have been summarily rejected and no review would have been done. 

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8 minutes ago, lu1979 said:

It is not about putting him in a bridge position.  Yianni initiated the roll through.  The roll through exposed Zain's back.  That is what count.  The reason I suggested you look at what happened to Zain's body position as Yianni hits the roll through is because it makes it obvious who initiated the move.  I am still stunned that the mat judges could get this so wrong on review. By the way there is no concept of "control" in FS as there is in folkstyle.  A lot of the scoring depends on determining who initiated a particular action.  Many times that is very difficult to see.  I am of the opinion that this time it wasn't that hard to determine. To me it is obvious that Yianni initiated the roll through.  Unfortunately that mat judges somehow saw it differently. 

I also have a hard time accepting that a review brick can be thrown that far after a sequence and still be accepted.  I have seen enough FS to know that if that happened in an international tournament the brick would have been summarily rejected and no review would have been done. 

According to the rules, there were only two ways Yianni could have scored.  One of those ways required Yianni to have put Zain in a bridge position.  But I did not see that happen. I saw Zain very close to scoring when Yianni decided to roll through Zain's hold.

Edited by Katie

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16 minutes ago, Katie said:

According to the rules, there were only two ways Yianni could have scored.  One of those ways required Yianni to have put Zain in a bridge position.  But I did not see that happen. I saw Zain very close to scoring when Yianni decided to roll through Zain's hold.

Not sure which specific rules you're trying to paraphrase here but it sounds like they are assuming that this is continuous from Zain's initial shot. It's clear that Y stopped Z and now we're using different rules. 

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is the issue. The refs calling the match had time to calmly review the sequence and THEY decided it was 2 for red and 0 for blue, and then adjusted the score according to what they deemed the correct scoring for the match. 6-6 Red over Blue

The refs calling the match made this call. What are we gonna do here, go all Russian and have panels make calls after the fact? I thought wrestling community just wanted to get the call right? The refs gave us the call they deemed right. Now because Koll knows he can't challenge the actual call (because of its subjectivity) his whole protest is centered around the timing of the brick throw. The scoring is more important than the timing of the brick throw. And if the brick throw at the end of the match is too late, then what does this say about a Monday Morning Protest? That's way, way too late. That won't fly. 

The scoring is more important than the brick throw for you because your guy was the benefactor of the brick throw, which was clearly not supposed to be allowed. And it's not a Monday Morning Protest. They immediately protested as soon as the rules were broken. If the role was reversed, we'd have dozens of posts from you foaming at the mouth about anti-PSU bias and how Zain was outright robbed. Just admit your guy benefited from a few fortunate officiating decisions. He wrestled outstanding in both matches and I would have taken him in match 3, but he should not have won match 2.

As an aside, the scoring they came up with is completely ridiculous. 2 Zain is the only thing it couldn't have been. Yianni stopped the action in the crackdown, then completely changed the direction of Zain's body with the chest lock as he exposed him. Clear 2 for Yianni. The only question is whether Zain was able to expose him with the elevation before Yianni took him through with the chest lock, which is arguable and tough to tell. Ask yourself this: Was Zain attempting to expose him by rolling through over the top? Clearly, no. He was just trying to elevate the leg. He was taken through over the top against his will because it wasn't his move.

The only acceptable outcomes were 2 Yianni or 2 and 2. 

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8 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Almost all of the opinions here are partisan. Zain Rutherford was awarded the victory based upon the interpretation of the rules by the officials responsible for scoring the bout. End of story. 

you certainly understand the point of message boards. thanks for wrapping this up so quickly for us.

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I must be watching something different than everybody else. 

Just before the roll through, I see  Yianni on his butt.  I see his right leg being fully extended and being held up in the air.  And I see Yianni hanging on for dear life while Zain is close to scoring.

I do not see Zain’s hold being stopped or completed. 

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48 minutes ago, Katie said:

The rules do not speak of defensive wrestlers initiating roll throughs.  They speak of defensive wrestlers controlling an offensive wrestler by putting him in a "bridge position' -- ie, a position considered completed. 

So I guess I'm not understanding how Yianni put Zain in a bridge position.  It looked to me like Zain was close to scoring on Yianni and was working on doing so when Yianni rolled through.  At what point was Zain in a bridge position?

The only other way for Yianni to have scored is to have "conducted the action on a continuous basis."  But like I said before, I don't know what that means.

perhaps what we are missing is...

when yanni rolled him, he became the offensive wrestler

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1 minute ago, Katie said:

I must be watching something different than everybody else. 

Just before the roll through, I see  Yianni on his butt.  I see his right leg being fully extended and being held up in the air.  And I see Yianni hanging on for dear life while Zain is close to scoring.

I do not see Zain’s hold being stopped or completed. 

Interesting take.  I don't see a scoring move by Zain.  I see Yianni using his left leg as a post to roll Zain through, clearly throwing Retherford off of his post in the process.

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6 minutes ago, Katie said:

I must be watching something different than everybody else. 

Just before the roll through, I see  Yianni on his butt.  I see his right leg being fully extended and being held up in the air.  And I see Yianni hanging on for dear life while Zain is close to scoring.

I do not see Zain’s hold being stopped or completed. 

look closely behind zain, you can see yanni's left leg in action.

also, zain is close to scoring, but there isn't much movement in the position, until yanni pushes with said left leg

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8 hours ago, gowrestle said:

Almost all of the opinions here are partisan. Zain Rutherford was awarded the victory based upon the interpretation of the rules by the officials responsible for scoring the bout. End of story. 

It's funny how having a discussion on controversial reffing immediately means to some that people must have rooting interests. This was one of the most controversial calls in domestic freestyle in many years, and we can't have a few posts about it on a wrestling forum? I guess guys like Jordan Burroughs, Tony Ramos, Ben Askren, Pat Downey, and many others who found the outcome so outrageous they took the time to tweet about their views must all have "partisan" opinions. To quote JB, "they would have had to bring in security to get me to leave the mat."

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6 minutes ago, GockeS said:

look closely behind zain, you can see yanni's left leg in action.

also, zain is close to scoring, but there isn't much movement in the position, until yanni pushes with said left leg

I agree that Yianni pushes off with his left leg when he was already in a very bad position.

But as the defensive wrestler, one of the two ways Yianni could have scored at all was to first put Zain in a “bridge position.”  That in turn means Zain’s hold would have to have been completed or stopped before Yianni’s roll through. I simply don’t think that happened. 

(The only other way for Yianni to have scored was for his action to have been conducted “on a continuous basis.”  But i don’t know what that means.)

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51 minutes ago, GockeS said:

like i said. when he is pushing off, he is no longer the defensive wrestler.

it's his move.

The rules don't directly address how a defensive wrestler becomes an offensive wrestler.  The closest I can find is this:

Quote

If the attacking wrestler executes a hold on his own bridge, holds this position for a certain amount of time, and then completes his action by placing his opponent in the bridge position as well, he will not be penalized. Only the attacking wrestler will be awarded the points, as he will have completed the action in a hold that involved risks. However, if the offensive wrestler is blocked under control in the bridge position or by a counteraction by his opponent, it is clear that points will be awarded to the latter wrestler.

What does that mean?  I'm not sure.

It seems to say that an offensive wrestler can only be scored on if the defensive wrestler blocks his hold "under control" or "by a counteraction." 

Did Yianni ever block Zain's hold? I'd say no. He merely rolled through Zain's hold while he was very close to being scored on.  That interpretation of the rules would logically make sense with the requirement that a defensive wrestler put the offensive wrestler in a "bridge position" before he can score.

Anyway, someone needs to re-write the rules because they are not clear. I'm out.

Edited by Katie

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Both wrestle in a way that, in Freestyle, is hard to judge. 2 A+ wrestlers. Love em both. Zain has improved more over the last 2 months - and from my eyes won both matches. But did he under Freestyle rules?

I do not know. If they wrestle again start all over - not just 1 match. But that booing was beneath many. We all support who is chosen.

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it's pretty obvious that Zain's intention was never to roll over the way he did.. he could have exposed yianni without exposing his own back.. his back was exposed because yianni took him that way.. the more i watch the video, the more i'm convinced it's 2-2 on the sequence..

 

it's been said Cael threw the brick for the last 15 seconds if there was exposure.. and there wasn't.. so why wasn't yianni given 1 point on the failed challenge?

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16 minutes ago, Katie said:

The rules don't directly address how a defensive wrestler becomes an offensive wrestler.  The closest I can find is this:

What does that mean?  I'm not sure.

It seems to say that an offensive wrestler can only be scored on if the defensive wrestler blocks his hold "under control" or "by a counteraction." 

Did Yianni ever block Zain's hold? I'd say no. He merely rolled through Zain's hold while he was very close to being scored on.  That interpretation of the rules would logically make sense with the requirement that a defensive wrestler put the offensive wrestler in a "bridge position" before he can score.

Anyway, someone needs to re-write the rules because they are not clear. I'm out.

yanni becomes offensive when he initiates a move 

he did block zain's move. zain had not yet scored a TD and was waiting for stalemate.

a hold does not constitute action to 'roll thru' 

 

i agree. the rules aren't clear. refs aren't clear. no one is clear.

and even with 3 refs, no one is clear.

this is why people hate freestyle.

 

I wanted z to win. but this just showcases why freestyle and greco suffer

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