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13 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Great video, Rakkasan91. Tucci speaks to which wrestler takes the risk and whether or not the defensive wrestler stops the action. Applied to this match in question, Zain took the risk and Yianni never stopped the action, imo. 

Tucci even addresses the 5 second rule. He talks about in World competition bricks being thrown 10 and 15 seconds later than the score going up. The emphasis from Tucci is that when the call can decide a match, getting the score correct takes precedence over the timing of the brick throw. He talks about the action stopping and a coach looking up and the score isn't what the coach thinks it should be, so the coach throws the brick. Tucci explains this to be reasonable because they want to get the score right. Pretty clearly that applies here. 

Also what is being missed is that the  chair went 2 and 2 when that wasn't even a option his options were 2 red or 2 blue so regardless of the brick the sequence had to be scored again.

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48 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Final note - I do not believe the result will be changed. The match was scored by two of the best officials in the sport. They scored it, it is over. What are we going to allow here? That Koll can say he disagrees with the scoring so let's get some different refs that agree with a different interpretation? That would make this sport a joke. I don't believe the timing of the brick throw will change anything either. The NLWC will easily be able to cite hundreds of brick throws that happen after the clock reads 0:00 that have been reviewed in the past, probably dozens for action that occurred more than 5 seconds prior. So I don't believe they will go down into that rabbit hole. The result will be upheld and Zain will rightfully represent the USA at Worlds. 

I don't think the NLWC has any say in the matter.  It would seem that it is Yianni vs USA Wrestling,  I could be wrong...

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1 minute ago, AHamilton said:

I don't think the NLWC has any say in the matter.  It would seem that it is Yianni vs USA Wrestling,  I could be wrong...

I don't know how protests work. I figured if they are going to interview Yianni/Koll then they'd also give Zain/NLWC a say. But perhaps no. If that guy Tucci is involved I'm OK with it either way. His explanation in that video posted by Rakassan makes a pretty compelling case for how and why in this match the result was the correct result. Not sure how the Yianni/Koll protest could succeed. 

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23 minutes ago, Frank_Rizzo said:

You mean the people who studied no less than seven years after high school in order to understand the law, regulations, language, and nuance?  The same people who then passed a notoriously rigorous multi-day examination to determine whether they can even practice the profession they spent the previous seven years studying for?  Those greasy guys?  

Without a doubt. Those are the ones who should be deciding wtestling matches, with the exception of older ones, as Koll feels they ate not qualified as their best days are behind them

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55 minutes ago, Rakkasan91 said:

"Final note - I do not believe the result will be changed. The match was scored by two of the best officials in the sport. They scored it, it is over. What are we going to allow here? That Koll can say he disagrees with the scoring so let's get some different refs that agree with a different interpretation? That would make this sport a joke. I don't believe the timing of the brick throw will change anything either. The NLWC will easily be able to cite hundreds of brick throws that happen after the clock reads 0:00 that have been reviewed in the past, probably dozens for action that occurred more than 5 seconds prior. So I don't believe they will go down into that rabbit hole. The result will be upheld and Zain will rightfully represent the USA at Worlds."

I tend to agree with you even though I had scored 2 for Yianni.  The officials involved in this are the best in the US.  The Referee, Chairman and two member jury have officiated multiple Olympic Games.  Since, 1983, only five American referees have been awarded the Golden Whistle at a senior World Championship or Olympic Games.  Three of them were involved in this match (Errett, Tucci, Stecklien (sp)). One of the referees is a UWW instructor and there are only like six of those in the World.  While seasoned officials can get calls wrong, the resumes of those involved in this match are impressive and I would think offers a great deal of credibility with the USOC protest.

The scoring is a judgment call and a tough one. So I agree that that aspect will not be changed. But the five second rule is not a judgment call. Because the brick was not thrown within five second or anything close to five seconds, there should have been NO review and the score should have remained 8-6 in favor of Yianni. This was a clear error. Also, this was not a case where the score went on the board late. So there was no excuse for not throwing the brick on time.

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13 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

JB, since you posted and seem to know high level officials, if you don't know yourself, perhaps you know someone who can answer these two questions:

1. Is it possible for refs to decide a match based on a review after the match is whistled over? My understanding is no (I am aware the mat chairman can interrupt a match and ask for a consultation, but not clear on whether he can do so after the match is complete unless the scoring sequence occurred right as the match ended and he asks for a consultation after time is up but the match is not whistled complete).

2. Is it possible for refs to review action on a contested call on the mat beyond the scoring/non-scoring move being contested? My understanding is no (in other words, when doing video review, I thought the review was restricted specifically to the contested action).

Obviously, I'm talking about the Zain/Yianni match, but I am curious overall.

1. I believe you kind of answered your own question with another question. I've only seen reviews impact match outcomes when there is a scoring sequence very close to the buzzer. Like was there a stepout before time expired, that type of thing. That doesn't mean reviews didn't happen where there was time left on the clock after a contested score and the match ran out. That, to my recollection, has happened a time or two when I was paying attention, but usually was within the last few seconds of a match. 

2. I have no idea honestly. I know there's an officials conference, but I believe all video reviews have to be initiated by the challenge process. I can't for the life of me remember an instance where the video was looked at without a challenge. Usually, the question from the corners is asked "what is your question, what are you challenging" - typically the words "last action" are what they want to hear. I do know with certainty that I've never seen a review go back more than 20-25 seconds and since they have initiated the "five seconds" rule, I've seen bricks tossed back at continental and world championships because the action was challenged way too late. I don't have a dog in the fight with this situation, that's just my experience on the matter. I don't know if it answers your question or not. 

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57 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I don't know how protests work. I figured if they are going to interview Yianni/Koll then they'd also give Zain/NLWC a say. But perhaps no. If that guy Tucci is involved I'm OK with it either way. His explanation in that video posted by Rakassan makes a pretty compelling case for how and why in this match the result was the correct result. Not sure how the Yianni/Koll protest could succeed. 

The Yianni grievance is with the officiating and trials process and not with Zain/Cael/Cunningham/NLWC.  Therefore, my guess is that NLWC not involved.

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21 minutes ago, JasonBryant said:

1. I believe you kind of answered your own question with another question. I've only seen reviews impact match outcomes when there is a scoring sequence very close to the buzzer. Like was there a stepout before time expired, that type of thing. That doesn't mean reviews didn't happen where there was time left on the clock after a contested score and the match ran out. That, to my recollection, has happened a time or two when I was paying attention, but usually was within the last few seconds of a match. 

2. I have no idea honestly. I know there's an officials conference, but I believe all video reviews have to be initiated by the challenge process. I can't for the life of me remember an instance where the video was looked at without a challenge. Usually, the question from the corners is asked "what is your question, what are you challenging" - typically the words "last action" are what they want to hear. I do know with certainty that I've never seen a review go back more than 20-25 seconds and since they have initiated the "five seconds" rule, I've seen bricks tossed back at continental and world championships because the action was challenged way too late. I don't have a dog in the fight with this situation, that's just my experience on the matter. I don't know if it answers your question or not. 

Thanks for affirming my views on both. It would be great to get a rulebook-referenced answer (alas, no mention of these in the rule book) or at least an experienced official's view on these.

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28 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

The Yianni grievance is with the officiating and trials process and not with Zain/Cael/Cunningham/NLWC.  Therefore, my guess is that NLWC not involved.

OK. I'm good either way since I believe the result will handled in a fair way. 

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

And here is the problem with these situations not being clearly defined, my opinion matches the call. 

  • I think the roll thru is initiated by Zain. Zain lets go of the single with his right arm long before the roll thru even begins. Five or more seconds before if you go and re watch it. He is using that hand to post to the mat. 
  • People say Yianni is pushing off the mat with his left leg, but I see him on the inside of his left foot not with his foot fully planted to the ground which is how you would want it if you were going to use it to push off the ground. I  see no push off the ground  from Yianni there. Yianni's hands can't post because they are in the chest wrap. His right leg obviously can't post. And we can see his left leg only the very inside of the foot is even on the ground. Nearly every score you see from a chest wrap occurs when the defensive wrestler gets not just one foot posted, but both feet posted and gets his hips forward. But Yianni can't do any of these things. He can't post both feet. He can't move his hips any farther forward or he'll be exposed. He's on his butt in a terrible position that Zain put him in. 
  • IMO, the wrestler who is working to push off the ground is obviously Zain, not Yi anni. Zain continually works in a clockwise direction and continually works to elevate Yianni's right leg. He only lets go of the single with his right hand because A) he wants to post off the ground B) he has that right leg secure with his left hand which is proved by the fact he still has the leg after the roll thru
  • Of course Zain throws the legs back to counter balance. That's is what anyone would do there. 
  • One more thing. I believe the rules require for the defensive wrestler to score from a chest wrap the defensive wrestler has to stop the offensive wrestler's movement, even if for only one second. They are in the position for more than 20 seconds with Zain continuously working towards that final exposure. Zain has Yianni in a very defensive position that Yianni just can't free himself of. He can't get behind Zain which is his normal go to from that crackdown. He obviously can't stalemate the position. He's going to get rolled eventually there, which is what happens. He just goes with it while trying to make it look like his action. 

Let's look at this from both wrestler's perspective before the roll thru. What is each wrestler trying to do? 

Zain - Zain needs to score because he is trailing 6-4. He needs to work for a TD or exposure. One or the other. His calculation is either break the chest wrap which probably gets him both the TD and exposure OR he calculates Yianni will never let go in that situation so he works for exposure which he needs to get. He must get the exposure, which he is obviously working for and, in his mind, his corner's mind, and the referee's mind, he gets. 

Yianni - As Yianni is fighting to not give up points he is in a clearly defensive position. Zain has the single leg and is circling. Yianni gets the chest wrap and sits the corner. What is he hoping for here? What outcomes favor Yianni? 1) Yianni can just hold on for dear life and hope for a stalemate. That is one possible outcome. I give that outcome a small chance as hard as Zain is going to work in that situation. 2) Yianni can turn the scramble into his points by freeing his right leg and working around Zain to turn this into his TD. Odds are extremely low once Zain has Yianni's leg in the air. 3) The best odds for Yianni is to try and turn Zain's action into his own action. He knows Zain is going to expose his back, he can feel it, and he tries to time it to make it look like his action. Smart move on his part, but over ruled once the replay was reviewed. 

 

Final note - I do not believe the result will be changed. The match was scored by two of the best officials in the sport. They scored it, it is over. What are we going to allow here? That Koll can say he disagrees with the scoring so let's get some different refs that agree with a different interpretation? That would make this sport a joke. I don't believe the timing of the brick throw will change anything either. The NLWC will easily be able to cite hundreds of brick throws that happen after the clock reads 0:00 that have been reviewed in the past, probably dozens for action that occurred more than 5 seconds prior. So I don't believe they will go down into that rabbit hole. The result will be upheld and Zain will rightfully represent the USA at Worlds. 

Absolute drivel. You, as perhaps the most well-known PSU homer on this board, see what you want to see. I'll address you point by point.

1) Zain absolutely did not initiate that roll and any suggestion that he did is either dishonest or blind. Everything he did in that situation was to prevent getting taken through, from readjusting his shoulder, lowering his hips, etc... Furthermore, at :45 seconds Zain pauses and sinks his BACK, not what he would be doing if he was planning to jump over the top to expose Yianni. He was clearly trying to elevate the leg enough to slowly tip Yianni to his back or close enough where Yianni was no longer able to prevent him from doubling off. Furthermore, watch their faces when the roll initiates. Zain's eyes go wide and he grimaces because he was just taken to a position against his will and he's desperately trying to maintain control of the leg as he is exposed. No change in Yianni's expression because that sequence did not take him by surprise because it was his move.

2) Utterly ridiculous and spoken like someone who has never wrestled out of that position. Ideally, you would want to be pushing off the inside of your foot 100% of the time. In fact, if your foot is flatly planted in that position that probably means you're in big trouble because your opponent has shifted your weight to that side, probably putting both of your butt cheeks on the mat, greatly reducing your maneuverability. You should be using that free foot to be driving back across your body into your opponent to remain on your inside butt cheek. If you want to learn how this position works, there's a great tech series on flo by Rob Eiter going over the basic principles of defensive crackdown. Ironically, you've only demonstrated that Yianni was in fact in solid position to chest wrap there because he still had the proper leverage.

You also will almost never see someone be able to post both feet on the ground in a crackdown. Again, it doesn't sound like you understand that position (It was my best position, so I know it well). You seem to be confusing this position with a chest wrap from the standing position where you're able to fully get your hips underneath of yourself. The crackdown position is different because you only have use of one free leg. 

You also show an ignorance of Yianni's specific unique style within the crackdown position (his best position). He is often in that position completely comfortably and is not nearly as uncomfortable as people seem to think. He was in solid position and could have potentially held on for another 5-10 seconds for a stalemate. He took advantage of Zain's last attempt to finish where his hips came up, opening him up to be taken through.

3) Zain's momentum is shifting backwards when the roll is initiated as he was trying to lower his hips after shelfing the foot, not into Yianni at that moment as he would have been if he initiated the roll.

4) NOT IF YOU WERE INITIATING AN EXPOSURE ROLL OVER THE TOP YOU ABSOLUTE DUNCE.

5) Yianni had stopped Zain's motion. That logic applies to situations where somebody is driving through a takedown and is rolled through with no significant change in direction or momentum. They were in a crackdown for 23 seconds with minimal change. Yes, Zain is elevating the leg, but he's not driving through Yianni. That move could not have been anymore "stopped." one of the biggest indicators officials use in this case is a pause followed by a change in direction. They were paused for 20 seconds with minimal change followed by a change in direction of Zain (circling to his left and then taken over his back to his right).

Zain's intent was clear. He was trying to finish the way he's tried to finish every time with Yianni: slow, measured improvement to try to either expose or double off.

For Yianni: Have you ever watched him before? This is his bread and butter. Of course he is going to try and score in his best position. Zain's hips came up. Yianni took advantage and took him through.

 

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12 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Absolute drivel. You, as perhaps the most well-known PSU homer on this board, see what you want to see.

Pot, Kettle, Black. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

1) Zain absolutely did not initiate that roll and any suggestion that he did is either dishonest or blind.

So you are claiming the review committee is dishonest or blind. Gotcha. 

 

 

12 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Furthermore, watch their faces when the roll initiates. Zain's eyes go wide and he grimaces because he was just taken to a position against his will and he's desperately trying to maintain control of the leg as he is exposed. No change in Yianni's expression because that sequence did not take him by surprise because it was his move.

Oh good, let's start deciding matches based on facial reactions. That will improve the sport for sure. 

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17 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

For Yianni: Have you ever watched him before? This is his bread and butter. Of course he is going to try and score in his best position. Zain's hips came up. Yianni took advantage and took him through.

Lol. He's got a million videos on the www and he's wrestled in the past two NCAA Championships. What do you think? 

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

 

Final note - I do not believe the result will be changed. The match was scored by two of the best officials in the sport. They scored it, it is over. What are we going to allow here? That Koll can say he disagrees with the scoring so let's get some different refs that agree with a different interpretation? That would make this sport a joke. 

TOO LATE

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Great video, Rakkasan91. Tucci speaks to which wrestler takes the risk and whether or not the defensive wrestler stops the action. Applied to this match in question, Zain took the risk and Yianni never stopped the action, imo. 

 

they didn't move for 23 seconds..... so it was ... STOPPED.

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1 minute ago, GockeS said:

they didn't move for 23 seconds..... so it was ... STOPPED.

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

Both were still breathing too. 

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9 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

it should have been stopped long before . i have seen front head situations stopped in 3 seconds that had more movement than this position did.

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10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

the initial move had been stopped for 23 seconds.

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10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

and actually.. no zain NEVER improved.

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Looks to me like Zain started the sequence by lifting  the leg causing Yanni, in desperation, used zains momentum, rolled on his back, never stopped anything, just continued zains move.  2 points Zain.  Whether they give 2 points to yanni is debatable.  He didnt really stop zains initial move.

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50 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Pot, Kettle, Black. 

 

 

So you are claiming the review committee is dishonest or blind. Gotcha. 

 

 

Oh good, let's start deciding matches based on facial reactions. That will improve the sport for sure. 

I was rooting for Zain. He's probably my favorite PSU guy and I felt he wrestled better than Yianni yesterday and have no problem with him as the rep. In fact, I was initially happy with the overturn because the guy I was rooting for won. It's only after seeing it over and over again that I've changed my mind because of how bad a call it is.

I, along with a significant portion of the wrestling community, are calling them blind.

I typed a few hundred words of support for my claim. You can throw out the facial reaction (one or 2 sentences) and my support doesn't weaken at all.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

OK. I'm good either way since I believe the result will handled in a fair way. 

what if it goes against zain?

im good either way as well. however, i dont believe the result of the review was handled in a fair way.

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1 minute ago, tbert said:

Looks to me like Zain started the sequence by lifting  the leg causing Yanni, in desperation, used zains momentum, rolled on his back, never stopped anything, just continued zains move.  2 points Zain.  Whether they give 2 points to yanni is debatable.  He didnt really stop zains initial move.

In what world is being in a crackdown for 23 seconds not stopping Zain's initial head outside single. This is completely exasperating to see argued repeatedly. 

Also, Zain's body was shifting backwards when the roll was initiated. Yianni exposed him against his own momentum.

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Tbar...

Your clear bias is reducing the credibility of your opinion on this topic at an alarming rate. Not that it matters because this is just a message board after all but to quote someone somewhere, “you are entitled to your own opinions sir but not your own facts.”

From a wrestling standpoint, you can’t possibly think that was continuous action from an initial shot. They were in a crackdown for gods sake... 

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