The call

[TBar1977 3,760]

17 minutes ago, GockeS said:

it should have been stopped long before . i have seen front head situations stopped in 3 seconds that had more movement than this position did.

 

17 minutes ago, GockeS said:

the initial move had been stopped for 23 seconds.

 

17 minutes ago, GockeS said:

and actually.. no zain NEVER improved.

 

You should have been part of the review process, that way Yianni might have actually won. 

[TBar1977 3,760]

10 minutes ago, tbert said:

Looks to me like Zain started the sequence by lifting  the leg causing Yanni, in desperation, used zains momentum, rolled on his back, never stopped anything, just continued zains move.  2 points Zain.  Whether they give 2 points to yanni is debatable.  He didnt really stop zains initial move.

Which I believe is a requirement for him to score on a chest wrap. 

[qc8223 327]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Lol. He's got a million videos on the www and he's wrestled in the past two NCAA Championships. What do you think? 

Well, you are arguing that Yianni could not have possibly done something that he does almost every single match so....

[qc8223 327]

Just now, TBar1977 said:

Which I believe is a requirement for him to score on a chest wrap. 

He stopped the move. Clearly. And Zain was not improving the whole time. It was a back and forth battle of shoulder position. Yianni beat his shoulder, Zain readjusts to get his shoulder back in the pocket and repeat. No continuous improvement, and even if there was, the initial action is stopped. That logic applies to driving through a finish or lift in one continuous motion, not getting to the leg, having your first, second, third, etc... finish countered and slowly working to the next attempt. 

[TBar1977 3,760]

Just now, qc8223 said:

Well, you are arguing that Yianni could not have possibly done something that he does almost every single match so....

What he does in other matches is irrelevent here. For instance, he attempted to stop a Zain single in their prior match that he lost 10-4 by doing the exact same things. He first tried the chest wrap and when that failed he grabbed Zain's chest with one free arm and used the other to aid in trying to go behind Zain. In an even better position than what he was in during match 2, he still got exposed. So his defense against others was clearly not working consistently against Zain on Saturday night. 

[tbert 560]

7 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

In what world is being in a crackdown for 23 seconds not stopping Zain's initial head outside single. This is completely exasperating to see argued repeatedly. 

Also, Zain's body was shifting backwards when the roll was initiated. Yianni exposed him against his own 

Zain started a new move and Yanni only rolled with it.  Didnt stop it or redirect it, just continued it.

[TBar1977 3,760]

1 minute ago, qc8223 said:

He stopped the move. Clearly. And Zain was not improving the whole time. It was a back and forth battle of shoulder position. Yianni beat his shoulder, Zain readjusts to get his shoulder back in the pocket and repeat. No continuous improvement, and even if there was, the initial action is stopped. That logic applies to driving through a finish or lift in one continuous motion, not getting to the leg, having your first, second, third, etc... finish countered and slowly working to the next attempt. 

I didn't see it that way. What happened was Zain worked him to his rear end and gave him no other alternative than to go along with the roll thru. Yianni did do a good job of making it appear as if it was his move. I have to give him credit for that. He's good. 

[qc8223 327]

Just now, TBar1977 said:

What he does in other matches is irrelevent here. For instance, he attempted to stop a Zain single in their prior match that he lost 10-4 by doing the exact same things. He first tried the chest wrap and when that failed he grabbed Zain's chest with one free arm and used the other to aid in trying to go behind Zain. In an even better position than what he was in during match 2, he still got exposed. So his defense against others was clearly not working consistently against Zain on Saturday night. 

Except when it did during the exchange in question. I'm referring to the fact you pointed to Yianni's foot position as being evidence he couldn't have initiated when he repeatedly exposes people with that same foot position. That's called logical consistency. And here you are saying that because a move didn't work one time, it couldn't have worked another time. Logical fallacy. 

I notice you didn't actually address any of the evidence I used in my long post. I'm not shocked because that would require actual technical knowledge, not made up on the fly stuff to support a conclusion you already came to. Example: You decided the Yianni could not have initiated the exposure and Yianni's foot is not fully planted, so you're going to assert that that foot position makes it impossible for him to have initiated when in reality that foot position is exactly what allowed him to initiate.

[wrestlingnerd 2,585]

When in a crackdown position, if you want to expose the defending wrestler, you don't position your body against the momentum that would force the exposure by straightening your legs. You do the exact opposite. You jump over the opponent's with your legs in a compact, explosive motion, not a limp, elongated body position. It literally cannot be your move otherwise. Watch the master of the crackdown, Sadulaev, execute several exposures off the crackdown here: 

 

[Scorenomore 62]

I thought it was Zain’s score but after watching for like ten times I noticed the direction of Zain’s feet when the exposure occurs.  When looking at Zain’s feet, it appears that he is lifted off of his feet rather than propelling off of his feet.  Combining that with Yanni’s shifting of his left foot to initiate the move, I think it is definitely Yanni’s score.  

[swoopdown 446]

awesome!! LOL this is good stuff
i agree we also need to incentivize action.  but in WIN magazine wayne baughman made some good points about the 3 point TD not being so great...
 
and yes after 23 seconds of nothing they should have called a stalemate.
after 5 or 6 would have been better, then the brick could have been thrown earlier.
 

Thanks. I'll check out the Baughman article. I don't have a particularly entrenched opinion re 3 pt TD, so unintended consequences could change my mind ... Never wrestled freestyle so I undoubtedly haven't really thought it through as thoroughly as some.

Sent from my moto e5 play using Tapatalk

[TBar1977 3,760]

3 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Except when it did during the exchange in question. I'm referring to the fact you pointed to Yianni's foot position as being evidence he couldn't have initiated when he repeatedly exposes people with that same foot position. That's called logical consistency. And here you are saying that because a move didn't work one time, it couldn't have worked another time. Logical fallacy. 

I notice you didn't actually address any of the evidence I used in my long post. I'm not shocked because that would require actual technical knowledge, not made up on the fly stuff to support a conclusion you already came to. Example: You decided the Yianni could not have initiated the exposure and Yianni's foot is not fully planted, so you're going to assert that that foot position makes it impossible for him to have initiated when in reality that foot position is exactly what allowed him to initiate.

Part 1 above, I never said it couldn't work. What I said was Yianni's typically go to tactics were not working consistently against Zain on Saturday night. And I will go one step further, I believe his position in the 2nd match was much more precarious than his position on the same shot in Match 1. I think he probably knew that once his leg was in the air he was going over sooner or later.

As for addressing every point you made, not necessary given the first several were what they were. But you are on record, so you have that going for you. 

[qc8223 327]

18 minutes ago, Scorenomore said:

I thought it was Zain’s score but after watching for like ten times I noticed the direction of Zain’s feet when the exposure occurs.  When looking at Zain’s feet, it appears that he is lifted off of his feet rather than propelling off of his feet.  Combining that with Yanni’s shifting of his left foot to initiate the move, I think it is definitely Yanni’s score.  

spot on.

[qc8223 327]

17 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Part 1 above, I never said it couldn't work. What I said was Yianni's typically go to tactics were not working consistently against Zain on Saturday night. And I will go one step further, I believe his position in the 2nd match was much more precarious than his position on the same shot in Match 1. I think he probably knew that once his leg was in the air he was going over sooner or later.

As for addressing every point you made, not necessary given the first several were what they were. But you are on record, so you have that going for you. 

What does that even mean? That they cited actual wrestling technique and were logically consistent? That they weren't solely based on my fandom for one of the wrestlers?

Answer this question: Are you saying that Zain intended to roll over the top of that position to expose yianni? 

[Katie 723]

3 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

spot on.

But that’s not how the rules work (as I understand them).

A defensive wrestler must stop the offensive wrestler’s hold before he can score. In practice stopping a hold includes redirecting it.

In this case, Yianni does not stop or redirect Zain’s hold. He merely goes from resisting it to rolling with it. You can even see in the video that he initiates the roll at the same moment Zain lifts his right leg up. 

IMO, Yianni did not score. 

[wrestlingnerd 2,585]

1 minute ago, Katie said:

But that’s not how the rules work (as I understand them).

A defensive wrestler must stop the offensive wrestler’s hold before he can score. In practice stopping a hold includes redirecting it.

No. When a guy stops the motion of a guy attempting to double him and chest wraps him over his head, that's his move (see Kyle Dake). When a guy shoots a single or HC and the defending wrestler blocks off,  then gator bacons the guy right over his head, that's his move (see Yowlys Bonne Rodriguez). When a guy shoots in but the opponent clearly stops his motion, then locks in a crotch lift and flips him over, that's his move. Etc. Etc.

[qc8223 327]

48 minutes ago, tbert said:

Zain started a new move and Yanni only rolled with it.  Didnt stop it or redirect it, just continued it.

No, he absolutely did not. Watch it again. Zain shelfs the foot on his left hip then shifts his weight BACK and pauses. Then Yianni pushes off his left foot to initiate the roll. There was little to no forward pressure into Yianni at the time of the roll. The roll was against Zain's momentum not with it.

Again, you've constructed a definition to fit the conclusion you want, and that definition essentially eliminates all counter exposures from scoring.

Edited June 10, 2019 by qc8223

[GockeS 402]

51 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

 

 

You should have been part of the review process, that way Yianni might have actually won. 

you are forgetting.

i wanted Zain to win.

what happens when a call like this goes against a wrestler you like? 

[qc8223 327]

7 minutes ago, Katie said:

But that’s not how the rules work (as I understand them).

A defensive wrestler must stop the offensive wrestler’s hold before he can score. In practice stopping a hold includes redirecting it.

In this case, Yianni does not stop or redirect Zain’s hold. He merely goes from resisting it to rolling with it. You can even see in the video that he initiates the roll at the same moment Zain lifts his right leg up. 

IMO, Yianni did not score. 

Have you considered that you don't understand them? He did stop Zain's move. Clearly. They were in the same position for over 20 seconds. And no he didn't just roll with it when Zain lifted the leg. The leg had been lifted for 10 seconds. Furthermore, Zain's momentum was going backwards at the time of the roll. He was trying to lower his hips to prevent exactly what ended up happening: him getting exposed. He also completely changed the direction of Zain's movement. Zain was circling to his left to elevate the leg. He was taken over back to his right. In other words, he was redirected.

[GockeS 402]

1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Disagree. They never stopped moving at all, the action just progressed at a slower pace. Zain was slowly improving the whole time. 

sitting still for 23 seconds definitely is a slower pace.

[Mphillips 629]

Everyone has it figured out now, two days later and hundreds of video reviews.  Great job.  

[qc8223 327]

Just now, GockeS said:

you are forgetting.

i wanted Zain to win.

what happens when a call like this goes against a wrestler you like? 

If it were reversed, this board would be unreadable with the dozens and dozens of posts claiming an anti-PSU conspiracy.

[Katie 723]

3 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

No, he absolutely did not. Watch it again. Zain shelfs the foot on his left hip then shifts his weight BACK and pauses. Then Yianni pushes off his left foot to initiate the roll. There was little to no forward pressure into Yianni at the time of the roll. The roll was against Zain's momentum not with it.

From the angle I see, Yianni initiates the roll through at the exact same time Zain lifts his right leg up.  And that leg lift seems to have aided in the roll, not worked against it. 

[Katie 723]

8 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

No. When a guy stops the motion of a guy attempting to double him and chest wraps him over his head, that's his move (see Kyle Dake). When a guy shoots a single or HC and the defending wrestler blocks off,  then gator bacons the guy right over his head, that's his move (see Yowlys Bonne Rodriguez). When a guy shoots in but the opponent clearly stops his motion, then locks in a crotch lift and flips him over, that's his move. Etc. Etc.

So when Dake traps an offensive wrestler’s arms and head, scoots his hips in, lifts the guy off the mat and launches him, he’s not stopping or redirecting the offensive wrestler’s original hold? Are you serious?

[qc8223 327]

1 minute ago, Katie said:

From the angle I see, Yianni initiates the roll through at the exact same time Zain lifts his right leg up.  And that leg lift seems to have aided in the roll, not worked against it. 

Lifting the leg does help Yianni because it caused a positional mistake for Zain, but that's literally the nature of the sport. Opponent makes a momentary mistake and I capitalize. And it clearly doesn't happen when Zain lifts the leg. He shelfs the foot on his hip then shifts his weight back to fix the positional error. Yianni takes advantage of the positional error. Yianni's move. Again, Zain was not pressuring into Yianni when the roll starts. He's lowering his hips.