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The DECISION (yianni v retherford)

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16 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

You tie that whole post together with the last sentence, for which you have no grounding. 

 

Are you okay with it being 8-6 because you think it should have been scored 2B and Yianni would win anyway or because you think obvious procedural errors in scoring should be allowed to stand if 0:30 of match time have passed?    

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14 hours ago, justafan said:

Once the score on the scoreboard is wrong which it was it said 8-6 the Chair went 2 and 2 and it was put on the board.Once the score on the board is wrong a challenge can come at anytime to question the score.So the scoring in question has the be scored again once a brick is thrown.So the 5 second rule doesnt matter in this situation.The Chair shouldve  never gone 2 and 2. The Chair did call 2 and 2 but couldnt call a  conference  because the scramble  never stopped until the buzzer. Im not saying 2 and 2 isnt a reasonable call but with that crew  the Chair dropped the ball hes gotta go 2 for someone.This isnt a Regional with Zach (Chair) and a few beginners ref and judge.With the crew they had no way should he have gone 2 and 2.Once he went 2 and 2 it was gonna end up in a Tucci review regardless.If  action did stop and the Chair calls a conference  either corner can challenge the outcome.Action never stopped and continued until the buzzer so youve to go back and score the 2 and 2 situation in question.I understand the people saying they shouldve stopped it with time left so Yianni had a chance to win but at no point did the action stop to warrant a stoppage both corners wouldve been screaming louder then theyre now if they wouldve stopped that scramble.If your not happy with the way Tucci scored it thats a different issue that was a judgement call and those dont change during a protest

this is the only procedural argument in zain's favor that makes sense. it essentially means that it isn't a challenge question, it is an internal officials' review to correct a procedural error. and presumably if the officials make a change to the scoreboard, zain withdraws his brick on the last 10 seconds.

13 hours ago, Fishbane said:

Are you okay with it being 8-6 because you think it should have been scored 2B and Yianni would win anyway or because you think obvious procedural errors in scoring should be allowed to stand if 0:30 of match time have passed?    

if it's based on the corner failing to challenge in time? yes. i'm ok with that. the rule limiting the time to challenge and including a one-point penalty for losing a challenge is to minimize gamesmanship. it intentionally trades off some level of "perfection" for certainty and finality. yes, sometimes the result will be wrong. in this case, i think you're arguing for what i think is literally the wrong result on scoring the scramble! are you ok with confirming 2 for Zain if there was indisputable video evidence that it was Yianni's move that initiated Zain's exposure? 

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15 hours ago, justafan said:

Once the score on the scoreboard is wrong which it was it said 8-6 the Chair went 2 and 2 and it was put on the board.Once the score on the board is wrong a challenge can come at anytime to question the score.So the scoring in question has the be scored again once a brick is thrown.So the 5 second rule doesnt matter in this situation.The Chair shouldve  never gone 2 and 2. The Chair did call 2 and 2 but couldnt call a  conference  because the scramble  never stopped until the buzzer. Im not saying 2 and 2 isnt a reasonable call but with that crew  the Chair dropped the ball hes gotta go 2 for someone.This isnt a Regional with Zach (Chair) and a few beginners ref and judge.With the crew they had no way should he have gone 2 and 2.Once he went 2 and 2 it was gonna end up in a Tucci review regardless.If  action did stop and the Chair calls a conference  either corner can challenge the outcome.Action never stopped and continued until the buzzer so youve to go back and score the 2 and 2 situation in question.I understand the people saying they shouldve stopped it with time left so Yianni had a chance to win but at no point did the action stop to warrant a stoppage both corners wouldve been screaming louder then theyre now if they wouldve stopped that scramble.If your not happy with the way Tucci scored it thats a different issue that was a judgement call and those dont change during a protest

This doesn’t answer anything. Was it reviewed because of the brick or was it “corrected” on their own? If you’re trying to say it was corrected on their own, Yianni should’ve then been allowed to challenge, but his brick was denied. He also should’ve been awarded one point due to Zain’s failed challenge on the late exchange.

Again if it was because of the late brick, that’s against the rules. You can ask if the score is correct at any time, but can’t throw a brick in order to get a replay whenever you want. That has to come within 5 seconds of the call in question. The rule is not “within 5 seconds of a scramble or wrestling ending”. It’s within 5 seconds of the points being awarded or not. It’s made so the officials will acknowledge the brick and review when a break in wrestling allows for it.

Also, everyone keeps overlooking that Zain’s corner 100% for sure challenged the late sequence hoping to gain exposure points. The brick was accepted and everyone saw the officials looking at the review of it. Nothing was changed, yet Yianni was never awarded his point. The only argument against this is that it was one long continual sequence, but again, that’s not what the rules say. The two potential scoring situations were 20-30 seconds apart.

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8 minutes ago, simple said:

This doesn’t answer anything. Was it reviewed because of the brick or was it “corrected” on their own? If you’re trying to say it was corrected on their own, Yianni should’ve then been allowed to challenge, but his brick was denied. He also should’ve been awarded one point due to Zain’s failed challenge on the late exchange.

Again if it was because of the late brick, that’s against the rules. You can ask if the score is correct at any time, but can’t throw a brick in order to get a replay whenever you want. That has to come within 5 seconds of the call in question. The rule is not “within 5 seconds of a scramble or wrestling ending”. It’s within 5 seconds of the points being awarded or not. It’s made so the officials will acknowledge the brick and review when a break in wrestling allows for it.

Also, everyone keeps overlooking that Zain’s corner 100% for sure challenged the late sequence hoping to gain exposure points. The brick was accepted and everyone saw the officials looking at the review of it. Nothing was changed, yet Yianni was never awarded his point. The only argument against this is that it was one long continual sequence, but again, that’s not what the rules say. The two potential scoring situations were 20-30 seconds apart.

Well put. This is what I’ve been trying to articulate. 

1. They reviewed because of the brick. Proof is rejecting Yianni’s brick. 

2. No way they were challenging that sequence. When you challenge you have to be specific. You can’t say “review the last minute”. You say “that specific scoring sequence was incorrect”

3. If they did say “review the 2-2 call” then they should’ve kicked the brick back. It was well past the 5 second rule, the immediate rule, and any reasonable accommodation for that rule. If it was at 7 seconds, this wouldn’t be an issue. 

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34 minutes ago, Housebuye said:

Well put. This is what I’ve been trying to articulate. 

1. They reviewed because of the brick. Proof is rejecting Yianni’s brick. 

2. No way they were challenging that sequence. When you challenge you have to be specific. You can’t say “review the last minute”. You say “that specific scoring sequence was incorrect”

3. If they did say “review the 2-2 call” then they should’ve kicked the brick back. It was well past the 5 second rule, the immediate rule, and any reasonable accommodation for that rule. If it was at 7 seconds, this wouldn’t be an issue. 

1) I think only a review can happen from a challenge, but maybe there is some other mechanism to initiate one.  If that's the case Yianni would be asking them to do what they just did.  That makes no sense.  If there is such a think as an official initiated review then it would make sense to not allow bricks to challenge that result.  You can't request a review of a review.

2) They were.  That is what you can hear a coach saying on the video.  They challenged the 2-2.  The PA announcer said the exposure at the end of the match, but that's not what the coach can be heard saying in the video.  Also you can state a specific scoring sequence to challenge, but they go back and re-score the whole sequence including stuff you weren't specifically asking for. 

3) They being the mat chairman could not kick the brick back.  Only the review panel can reject a review request. 

Edited by Fishbane

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6 minutes ago, tbert said:

Everyone commenting about rules they have never read.

Speak for yourself. 

If I hadn't read the rulebook, how would I know that all referees and mat judges MUST wear the official UWW homologated Uniform?  Or that in the Nordic tournament, the wrestler with the highest number of victories will be ranked first, regardless of the total number of classification points?

I'm well versed on the UWW rules bub.  

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23 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Speak for yourself. 

If I hadn't read the rulebook, how would I know that all referees and mat judges MUST wear the official UWW homologated Uniform?  Or that in the Nordic tournament, the wrestler with the highest number of victories will be ranked first, regardless of the total number of classification points?

I'm well versed on the UWW rules bub.  

Yep, your an expert, No doubt.  the 5 second rule is located somewhere between those.  

Or near the rule that states coaches may not throw any item on the mat to challenge.  Which is after the rule that states the coaches must push a button to challenge. And after the rule that the coaches must only throw a sponge. 

The rulebook is vague and everyone picks one or another vague rule or points as some are listed.  Does a point have more weight than a rule? 

 

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1 hour ago, simple said:

This doesn’t answer anything. Was it reviewed because of the brick or was it “corrected” on their own? If you’re trying to say it was corrected on their own, Yianni should’ve then been allowed to challenge, but his brick was denied. He also should’ve been awarded one point due to Zain’s failed challenge on the late exchange.

Again if it was because of the late brick, that’s against the rules. You can ask if the score is correct at any time, but can’t throw a brick in order to get a replay whenever you want. That has to come within 5 seconds of the call in question. The rule is not “within 5 seconds of a scramble or wrestling ending”. It’s within 5 seconds of the points being awarded or not. It’s made so the officials will acknowledge the brick and review when a break in wrestling allows for it.

Also, everyone keeps overlooking that Zain’s corner 100% for sure challenged the late sequence hoping to gain exposure points. The brick was accepted and everyone saw the officials looking at the review of it. Nothing was changed, yet Yianni was never awarded his point. The only argument against this is that it was one long continual sequence, but again, that’s not what the rules say. The two potential scoring situations were 20-30 seconds apart.

 

Maybe they challenged the entire sequence. I could see a case where the NLWC noticed the three different scores and then calculated that the sequence at 0:50 would be required to be re scored because of how they arrived at the 2-2 on the score board and then they threw the brick at the very end just to make sure the ref, judge and chair OR the jury conferenced on that issue. Who is to say that wasn't their thought process all along. Only they can definitively say for sure and I don't think they have said anything publicly. 

Edited by TBar1977

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Regardless of what NLWC coaches said, it is obvious that the review was of the earlier sequence because they took points away from Yianni, dropping him from 8 to 6. Of the review was of the later sequence, the only way Zain could win was if they added to his total, which they did not do. So there is no question about what the refs did. The only question is whether they were allowed to do so in the absence of a timely "brick" (which is actually not a brick, but a sponge).

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19 minutes ago, tbert said:

Yep, your an expert, No doubt.  the 5 second rule is located somewhere between those.  

Or near the rule that states coaches may not throw any item on the mat to challenge.  Which is after the rule that states the coaches must push a button to challenge. And after the rule that the coaches must only throw a sponge. 

The rulebook is vague and everyone picks one or another vague rule or points as some are listed.  Does a point have more weight than a rule? 

Please, for the love of God, will someone help me interpret these?  They're just so...vague, as you say.  

"The coach must request the challenge by pushing a button provided to him immediately after the refereeing body has awarded or failed to award points to the contested situation. If the wrestler disagrees with the coach's decision, he must reject the challenge directly and the match continues. If during a competition, the system with buttons (for the challenges) are not provided for the coaches, the organizer will have to provide a sponge that will be used to ask the challenge."

"No challenge can be requested after the end of the regular time of a period, except when the points are added to the scoreboard after the referee’s whistle or in case action occurred just before the time is over. The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge."

 

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Maybe they challenged the entire sequence. I could see a case where the NLWC noticed the three different scores and then calculated that the sequence at 0:50 would be required to be re scored because of how they arrived at the 2-2 on the score board and then they threw the brick at the very end just to make sure the ref, judge and chair OR the jury conferenced on that issue. Who is to say that wasn't their thought process all along. Only they can definitively say for sure and I don't think they have said anything publicly. 

Maybe! Or maybe they were challenging a call at the US Open and saying that Yianni should not have been in Final X at all. Maybe THAT!

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2 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

Please, for the love of God, will someone help me interpret these?  They're just so...vague, as you say.  

"The coach must request the challenge by pushing a button provided to him immediately after the refereeing body has awarded or failed to award points to the contested situation. If the wrestler disagrees with the coach's decision, he must reject the challenge directly and the match continues. If during a competition, the system with buttons (for the challenges) are not provided for the coaches, the organizer will have to provide a sponge that will be used to ask the challenge."

"No challenge can be requested after the end of the regular time of a period, except when the points are added to the scoreboard after the referee’s whistle or in case action occurred just before the time is over. The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge."

 

Ok, When does the 5 second clock start if they failed to post any points on the official score board and they wish to challenge?

Nope not vague at all.  

 

You also failed to post the point where they are not allowed to throw any item on the mat to challenge a call.

 

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1 minute ago, tbert said:

Ok, When does the 5 second clock start if they failed to post any points on the official score board and they wish to challenge?

Nope not vague at all.  

 

 

From when the challenger believes the points should’ve been awarded. It’s not difficult to understand for people with average reading comprehension skills.

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7 minutes ago, simple said:

From when the challenger believes the points should’ve been awarded. It’s not difficult to understand for people with average reading comprehension skills.

Then How did you figure it out?

 

Maybe the challenger figures it out 45 seconds later.

Your answer is too "vague"

We are talking rules being taken literally to the T on here..we seem the have the need to measure accurate start and stop times on here.  Rule say when the score is posted on the official score board. 

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20 minutes ago, tbert said:

Ok, When does the 5 second clock start if they failed to post any points on the official score board and they wish to challenge?

Nope not vague at all.  

 

 You also failed to post the point where they are not allowed to throw any item on the mat to challenge a call.

When these are the basis for your argument, you're just telling on yourself, man.  There's no sense in me arguing someone that's being intentionally obtuse.  

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Yianni nearly turning Zane was part of "the sequence". Why wasn't that looked at? I believe he wanted to challenge the rules regarding the timing of the red brick, but they certainly weren't giving him the benefit of a 50 second spanned review to see if some other camera angle had him getting 2 when Zain spun on his head.  His brick was denied. Nobody ever awarded any pts when Zain nearly exposed Yianni, yet that got looked over by the heads meticulously without a 1 pt award when unfounded.  To say the red brick may not have counted because of the erroneous officiating is BS because every person there saw them looking for Red's  2 that didn't happen. It was reviewed. To say that it was a "no brick" because of the official mishap 50 seconds below is nonsense if all the other aspects  and rules of the wrestling were in place for the match remainder. If there's no "Bad Time" then that has to count for a brick throw too. 

If red throws their brick within 5 seconds of the 2 blue and it is not stopped and reviewed until the action stopped at :00. , I'd have no beef with how this went down. That's not what happened though. That red brick should have been 1 pt for blue if they looked for Zane's exposure that wasn't there. 

 

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27 minutes ago, steamboat_charlie v2 said:

When these are the basis for your argument, you're just telling on yourself, man.  There's no sense in me arguing someone that's being intentionally obtuse.  

Obtuse or not when do you start the 5 second clock. Where is it?

Typical, you will pull out a few that fits your narrative but any that contradict...cant find..

Edited by tbert

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23 hours ago, mspart said:

You can watch these on youtube. 

I have it as follows:

1st match

Y              Z

2              0         1:21 (of youtube counter, not match time)

2              2         2:20 - 3:02   Where was Z's takedown.  I never saw it, they just gave it to him as he was on bottom fighting. 

should be 2-0

 

 

 

Right about 2:48-2:49 they gave Zain 2 for exposure.  You can clearly hear the commentators say it.

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45 minutes ago, brewland said:

Yianni nearly turning Zane was part of "the sequence". Why wasn't that looked at? I believe he wanted to challenge the rules regarding the timing of the red brick, but they certainly weren't giving him the benefit of a 50 second spanned review to see if some other camera angle had him getting 2 when Zain spun on his head.  His brick was denied. Nobody ever awarded any pts when Zain nearly exposed Yianni, yet that got looked over by the heads meticulously without a 1 pt award when unfounded.  To say the red brick may not have counted because of the erroneous officiating is BS because every person there saw them looking for Red's  2 that didn't happen. It was reviewed. To say that it was a "no brick" because of the official mishap 50 seconds below is nonsense if all the other aspects  and rules of the wrestling were in place for the match remainder. If there's no "Bad Time" then that has to count for a brick throw too. 

If red throws their brick within 5 seconds of the 2 blue and it is not stopped and reviewed until the action stopped at :00. , I'd have no beef with how this went down. That's not what happened though. That red brick should have been 1 pt for blue if they looked for Zane's exposure that wasn't there. 

 

This all day

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1 hour ago, NJDan said:

Regardless of what NLWC coaches said, it is obvious that the review was of the earlier sequence because they took points away from Yianni, dropping him from 8 to 6. Of the review was of the later sequence, the only way Zain could win was if they added to his total, which they did not do. So there is no question about what the refs did. The only question is whether they were allowed to do so in the absence of a timely "brick" (which is actually not a brick, but a sponge).

Don't the rules require they conference to determine the correct score out of the two possible scores the chair is required to choose from? 

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