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NJDan

Koll on the Call

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2 hours ago, NJDan said:

Perhaps the Yiann-Zain controversy has been done to death. But I just learned that Koll did a lengthy online interview, about it which was pretty good. https://therudis.com/rudis-wrestling-podcast-65-interview-rob-koll/

I have been quoting him from that interview for 2 days.

I am glad Dernlan kept teeing up the questions and allowing Koll's true feelings to come thru loud and clear. 

Edited by TBar1977

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That's the first time I've heard it explained in that depth.  The match should have been stopped the instant that we had 3 different scores proposed by the officials.  I know it's not the same to have 50 seconds live now, but I believe that's the most fair option available.   I'm even more surprised after hearing Coach Koll's comments that this many errors were made in a single match.  Wrestlers strategy is totally different on the decision of the sequence.  That's pretty basic, they should have gotten this right.  I agree with Mr Koll that there are some serious questions that need to be answered.  I kind of feel better knowing that it's a personnel issue rather than systemic from our scoring rules.  But yeah, unless there's a history of incompetence by this crew, I'd say they just had a terrible day, but either way, I'd feel mo-betta if they decide it on the mat.

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1 minute ago, Peso said:

That's the first time I've heard it explained in that depth.  The match should have been stopped the instant that we had 3 different scores proposed by the officials.  I know it's not the same to have 50 seconds live now, but I believe that's the most fair option available.   I'm even more surprised after hearing Coach Koll's comments that this many errors were made in a single match.  Wrestlers strategy is totally different on the decision of the sequence.  That's pretty basic, they should have gotten this right.  I agree with Mr Koll that there are some serious questions that need to be answered.  I kind of feel better knowing that it's a personnel issue rather than systemic from our scoring rules.  But yeah, unless there's a history of incompetence by this crew, I'd say they just had a terrible day, but either way, I'd feel mo-betta if they decide it on the mat.

Once they did not stop the clock and the match reaches 0:00 with a procedurally wrong score, do you leave the wrong score and just walk away, or do you conference to review it.

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I was going to stay out of it but I just can't. I was rooting for Yanni because at the time Final X started I thought he had the best chance for the US to medal. However he clearly lost the first match. Now we go to the second match. First, on the move in question it is extremely plausible to score it 2 for either wrestler or 2 & 2. I personally would have scored it 2 for Zane. No matter what you see or think you see when your leg is up that high it's hard for me to believe that you are the one initiating the action but regardless it is a judgment call. Where everybody seems to have gotten up in the arms is concerning Zach, the mat chair, and then the rewinding of the challenge back to 50 seconds. As Tim Foley explained in his broadcast so I'm using some of his words, the match chair, if he thinks there has been an error in the referee and judges scores, he can call for a conference and not confirm either one. That appears to be what happened. Also, there is no rule stating challenges have to be made within 5 seconds. Both of these I've just mentioned are covered in articles 21h and 21i.

There does appear to be some confusion because of a mention of five seconds in article 32. However, again coming from Mr. Foley, you'll see that the 5-second "challenge" mentioned is under a heading call specific points. These are not UWW rules or Articles but guidelines. Also, the actual paragraph dealing with five seconds is referring to challenges made at the end of a period. Many challenges are instigated well after 5 seconds.

Now, as far as wrestling with the incorrect score on the board and then the jury of appeals getting involved, I don't know if there is such a thing as bad time like in folkstyle or whether or not Tucci overstepped his authority.

Could the UWW rules be worded better? Absolutely. But although I wanted Yanni to win, it's just another one of those perfect storms of **** happening and Zane is and deserves to be our rep. 

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The match should have been stopped the instant that we had 3 different scores proposed by the officials.

This is not true. They should not have stopped the match while a potential scoring situation was happening and they didn't. That's not the way freestyle wrestling works.

 

Also, Koll is hardly a disinterested party here. Anything he says about the match or officiating errors should be taken with a large grain of salt.

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Yes, they should have stopped the match.  The wrong score on the scoreboard trumps a potential scoring situation.  You simply can't have wrestlers wrestling under the impression that the score is something it isn't.  

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3 minutes ago, jmachinder said:

Yes, they should have stopped the match.  The wrong score on the scoreboard trumps a potential scoring situation.  You simply can't have wrestlers wrestling under the impression that the score is something it isn't.  

 

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29 minutes ago, jmachinder said:

Yes, they should have stopped the match.  The wrong score on the scoreboard trumps a potential scoring situation.  You simply can't have wrestlers wrestling under the impression that the score is something it isn't.  

I will ask again, when the clock reached 0:00 with a score that was incorrectly arrived at with no agreement should they have reviewed to get agreement on a correctly arrived (2 of 3 in agreement) at score?

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I will ask again, when the clock reached 0:00 with a score that was incorrectly arrived at with no agreement should they have reviewed to get agreement on a correctly arrived (2 of 3 in agreement) at score?

According to the rules, they should have.  Video is explicitly prohibited.

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if no officials agree, no points should go on the board.   If points wrongly go on the board, the match should be stopped immediately.  If points wrongly go on the board and the match is not stopped, throw the whole match away.  The officials  and scorekeeper have made it worthless.  

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16 minutes ago, jmachinder said:

if no officials agree, no points should go on the board.   If points wrongly go on the board, the match should be stopped immediately.  If points wrongly go on the board and the match is not stopped, throw the whole match away.  The officials  and scorekeeper have made it worthless.  

Whether or not this is in the rules, it should be. Having more than one “ref” is pointless if points can go on the board without their agreement. More than one is supposed to make the process better, not worse. Score is one of the biggest factors, if not the single biggest, that influence how wrestlers wrestle a match. Generally, any wrestling that’s done after an incorrect score would be wrestled differently with the score corrected. The rules should acknowledge this. 

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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1 hour ago, Plasmodium said:

According to the rules, they should have.  Video is explicitly prohibited.

But the challenge brick brought video into play. Btw, it has been learned PSU expressly challenged the scoring at 0:50, not the final turn.  

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3 hours ago, jmachinder said:

if no officials agree, no points should go on the board.   If points wrongly go on the board, the match should be stopped immediately.  If points wrongly go on the board and the match is not stopped, throw the whole match away.  The officials  and scorekeeper have made it worthless.  

Logan Steiber and now TR Foley, neither suggest the action should have been stopped, a pov I agree with. They are not the final jury but I don't think the action not stopping grants yianni more matches.

Edited by TBar1977

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