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Pico TKO a few minutes ago

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50 minutes ago, MDogg said:

Only one of the posters you quoted actually makes the claim about Pico you’re purporting (the one by Mokoma). I said he could get back on that level if he quit MMA and trained freestyle full time. I also said it’s unlikely he could get back to that level fast enough for the 2020 trials even if he made the switch now...so that answers your smartass question about what I think he could’ve done at WTT with a month of training.

The facts are simple: I never said he could flip a switch and win anything. I said people who said too much time has passed and he could NEVER catch back up to the likes to Zain and Yianni are wrong.

He came a step-out point away from being our Olympic rep at 19 in 2016. He’s only 22 today. If he came back to training freestyle full time he could absolutely get back on Zain and Yianni’s level again. Not overnight but while still in his athletic prime. In other words it’s far from too late for Pico to come back to wrestling and (eventually) be world class. 

Feel free to keep pretending I’m saying something different. 

Go re read this thread. You started this argument with me, not the other way around. I wasn't even responding to you. 

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21 hours ago, MDogg said:

Zain had already won a cadet world gold (compared to Pico’s silver) and less than 12 months later he was the US world team rep at 65k. 

In their last match Zain scored more “freestyle” points than Pico. 2 step outa and 1 shot clock point compared to one 2 point turn for Pico. Pico took him down 3 times compared to 1 takedown for Zain. Again, Pico was 19 and not completely physically mature and he wasn’t even training freestyle full time. 

Pico also won Cade Gold and then dropped out of school and was training freestyle exclusively while Zain was primarily training folk and dealing with a college curriculum. Furthermore, despite Zain's folk accomplishments, he wasn't a real threat to make a world team back then so why is Pico's win even note worthy? 

The fact you go on to say in another post that Pico only lost to two wrestlers shows how you are engaged in confirmation bias and refuse to acknowledge the Pico wasn't the phenom you make it out to be. Here is video of Pico getting taken apart by a non NCAA champion. Pico caught a huge break by getting a seriously injured Reece in the OTT's Semis or we wouldn't even be talking about how he almost made the world team.  

 

 

 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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2 hours ago, Flying-Tiger said:

Pico also won Cade Gold and then dropped out of school and was training freestyle exclusively while Zain was primarily training folk and dealing with a college curriculum. Furthermore, despite Zain's folk accomplishments, he wasn't a real threat to make a world team back then so why is Pico's win even note worthy? 

The fact you go on to say in another post that Pico only lost to two wrestlers shows how you are engaged in confirmation bias and refuse to acknowledge the Pico wasn't the phenom you make it out to be. Here is video of Pico getting taken apart by a non NCAA champion. Pico caught a huge break by getting a seriously injured Reece in the OTT's Semis or we wouldn't even be talking about how he almost made the world team.  

 

 

 

So that’s all Reece Humphrey is, just a regular ol’ “non-NCAA champ”? It’s LOL funny that within the same post you make the distinction between folk and free when it comes to Zain...yet describe Reece Humphrey, a 3x world freestyle team member, as “non-NCAA champ.” 

You posted a clip from 2015 of Reece taking Pico apart...have they wrestled since then? Oh that’s right they did and Pico tech’d Reece. When Pico was a teenager. Then he came one point away from beating Molinaro and being our rep in the Olympics. As a teenager. But he wasn’t a phenom according to you. 

We can argue all day about what Pico could be today and could be down the road, but for you to say he was never a phenom is crazy.

 

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Well, with another loss on Pico's MMA record, I am concerned for him. Hopefully he can turn things around, otherwise I think his MMA career might not be what he hoped for. As far what could've been, we will never really know, but I think he could've been impactful these last couple of years. 

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On 6/18/2019 at 9:41 AM, MDogg said:

So that’s all Reece Humphrey is, just a regular ol’ “non-NCAA champ”? It’s LOL funny that within the same post you make the distinction between folk and free when it comes to Zain...yet describe Reece Humphrey, a 3x world freestyle team member, as “non-NCAA champ.” 

You posted a clip from 2015 of Reece taking Pico apart...have they wrestled since then? Oh that’s right they did and Pico tech’d Reece. When Pico was a teenager. Then he came one point away from beating Molinaro and being our rep in the Olympics. As a teenager. But he wasn’t a phenom according to you. 

We can argue all day about what Pico could be today and could be down the road, but for you to say he was never a phenom is crazy.

 

Referencing Reece as a non ncaa champ makes perfect sense since you (not me) try to use folk results to elevate Picos standing in freestyle which just shows how hard up you are to come up with results to justify the phenom status. Keep in mind Pico was supposed to be phenom in MMA and looked how that has worked out. Reality can be a bitch, that's why you have to prove it in sport. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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15 minutes ago, Flying-Tiger said:

Referencing Reece as a non ncaa champ makes perfect sense since you (not me) try to use folk results to elevate Picos standing in freestyle which just shows how hard up you are to come up with results to justify the phenom status. Keep in mind Pico was supposed to be phenom in MMA and looked how that has worked out. Reality can be a bitch, that's why you have to prove it in sport. 

He ONLY lost to Dake in OT, in quite controversial fashion, to take 3rd, having also beat him that year.  But, let's just call him a non-champ, without context, to "pee-onify" him as much as possible......................and don't forget taking 2nd to Gomez the year before..........

Edited by MSU158

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17 hours ago, Flying-Tiger said:

Referencing Reece as a non ncaa champ makes perfect sense since you (not me) try to use folk results to elevate Picos standing in freestyle which just shows how hard up you are to come up with results to justify the phenom status. Keep in mind Pico was supposed to be phenom in MMA and looked how that has worked out. Reality can be a bitch, that's why you have to prove it in sport. 

I’ve never once referenced Pico’s folk credentials. He beat Zain in freestyle less than 12 months before Zain was the US world freestyle rep...and years after Zain won a cadet world title in freestyle. But I guess that’s not much of an accomplishment for a teenager?

He was SUPPOSED to be a phenom in MMA. He WAS a phenom in wrestling.

If Yianni were to quit wrestling now for MMA, get overhyped, then get knocked out a few times would that mean he was never a wrestling phenom? Very similar freestyle credentials by the same age at the same weight.

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

I’ve never once referenced Pico’s folk credentials. He beat Zain in freestyle less than 12 months before Zain was the US world freestyle rep...and years after Zain won a cadet world title in freestyle. But I guess that’s not much of an accomplishment for a teenager?

He was SUPPOSED to be a phenom in MMA. He WAS a phenom in wrestling.

If Yianni were to quit wrestling now for MMA, get overhyped, then get knocked out a few times would that mean he was never a wrestling phenom? Very similar freestyle credentials by the same age at the same weight.

 

Yianni is the real deal. If we are now dealing in Yianni hypotheticals, I will speculate that if at same weight Yianni would beat Pico 10/10 in freestyle wrestling if those matches occur over the next 30 days. In other words, I don't see Pico being able to beat Yianni right now. 

Caveat, I don't think they are at the same weight. I think Pico would be a weight class higher.

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, MDogg said:

I’ve never once referenced Pico’s folk credentials. He beat Zain in freestyle less than 12 months before Zain was the US world freestyle rep...and years after Zain won a cadet world title in freestyle. But I guess that’s not much of an accomplishment for a teenager?

He was SUPPOSED to be a phenom in MMA. He WAS a phenom in wrestling.

If Yianni were to quit wrestling now for MMA, get overhyped, then get knocked out a few times would that mean he was never a wrestling phenom? Very similar freestyle credentials by the same age at the same weight.

Except Yianni is also going to college at an Ivy League school and winning NCAA championships, much more impressive to do both at the same time and much closer to the definition of a phenom than Pico was or ever will be. 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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1 hour ago, Flying-Tiger said:

 

Except Yianni is also going to college at an Ivy League school and winning NCAA championships, much more impressive to do both at the same time and much closer to the definition of a phenom than Pico was or ever will be. 

This is nonsense.  Yianni is also a phenom, but to say Pico wasn't is crazy.

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

 

Yianni is the real deal. If we are now dealing in Yianni hypotheticals, I will speculate that if at same weight Yianni would beat Pico 10/10 in freestyle wrestling if those matches occur over the next 30 days. In other words, I don't see Pico being able to beat Yianni right now. 

Caveat, I don't think they are at the same weight. I think Pico would be a weight class higher.

I doubt anyone would argue that Pico stands a chance against Yianni (or any of the other elite guys around that weight) if they were to wrestle right now. I know I wouldn’t. Everything I said about Pico being able to get back to that level was predicated on him leaving MMA and training for freestyle full time for an extended period of time (i.e not 30 days).

In an Olympic year I’d bet Pico is still 65kg...he’s been fighting featherweight which is 145lbs (albeit with day before weigh-ins). I just don’t see him up at 74kg with the likes of guys like Imar and Dake. But I’d bet you’re right that on non-Olympic years he’s more likely to be at 70kg. His first Bellator fight was was at lightweight (155lbs) and I thought he looked small. He’s been down at featherweight since. 

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QWow! We have gone round and round on this topic saying nothing. Lets try this:

1. NOBODY is saying Pico was not an elite wrestler. He was extremely good. Emphasis "was"

2. To continue to wrestle at an elite level you MUST continually train/compete IN WRESTLING year after year.

3. If Pico would have kept wrestling he FOR SURE would have had a shot to be on our US team every year.

4. If he comes back to wrestling exclusively (While MMA does involve some wrestling it is not the same as being a wrestler and only a wrestler), he has every chance to become a member of our national team, make world teams and win medals.

5. There is NO WAY he could walk out of the MMA gym, step onto a wrestling match and pick up right where he left off. NONE!

6. If he keeps getting knocked out, he may not have a choice as to his future.

7. I hope he comes back to wrestling.

 

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Unpopular opinion, but if hes training with chamizo, the Pico of today would kill the Pico that made the team trial finals, if he could make the weight without negative affects. Pico was very physical, and is now more physically mature which would directly translate to his style. Hes still practicing takedowns, they need those in mma too. Now that being said, that might not be enough to beat Zain or Yianni, but its crazy that people think he wouldnt have a chance. My guess is, if he were to come back, he would definitely be a better version of 2016 Pico. Now whether that is enough? That I dont know (probably not). I think he'd match up better with zain then yianni though.

Edited by Molsen

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17 hours ago, Mokoma said:

This is nonsense.  Yianni is also a phenom, but to say Pico wasn't is crazy.

It is truly amazing to me how you and Mdog throw around a word like phenom for a guy that hasn't won anything since he was a cadet. Perhaps you guys should look up the definition.

At least we can all agree Pico is clearly not a phenom in MMA despite all the hype over his Jr. Golden Gloves championship he won when he was 12.  

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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2 hours ago, Flying-Tiger said:

It is truly amazing to me how you and Mdog throw around a word like phenom for a guy that hasn't won anything since he was a cadet. Perhaps you guys should look up the definition.

At least we can all agree Pico is clearly not a phenom in MMA despite all the hype over his Jr. Golden Gloves championship he won when he was 12.  

Sometimes your actual grasp of wrestling itself is glaringly BAD.  If you stuck to the argument that he simply wouldn't be able to step right back in and win, you would be on solid ground.  But, acting like he wasn't a phenom is straight up brainless or simply uneducated.  The kid was winning Senior level medals while STILL in High School, beating guys like Safaryan.  Non-phenoms DO NOT do that while in High School.

Also, you act like winning Junior Nationals multiple times is "hasn't won anything since he was a cadet", while also lumping a Junior World Silver and Bronze into that same category.

 

So Pico wins Cadet Gold in 2013, Junior Silver in 2014, Junior Bronze in 2015 and then loses the 3rd match(best of 3)in the 2016 OLYMPIC Trial Finals 4-4 to a guy that would go on to take 5th, ALL while being a teenager and he was just your garden variety, non phenom wrestler?????

The ONLY reason you are even able to slightly get away with that is because he left the sport right after that to pursue MMA.  But, make no mistake, what he had done at that age level, ABSOLUTELY qualifies as a P H E N O M................................

The funny thing is I was never really even a fan of Pico, but ignoring the facts due to straight up PSU-Retherford bias, is straight up WEAK SAUCE...........................

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7 hours ago, Flying-Tiger said:

It is truly amazing to me how you and Mdog throw around a word like phenom for a guy that hasn't won anything since he was a cadet. Perhaps you guys should look up the definition.

At least we can all agree Pico is clearly not a phenom in MMA despite all the hype over his Jr. Golden Gloves championship he won when he was 12.  

In 2014 Pico went to Europe and beat Safaryan...the 2013 senior level world champ. He had just started his junior year of high school at the time and wasn’t even shaving yet. Definitely not a phenom.

 

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...and how did Safaryan do at Worlds that year or any of the years after? Did he even make another world team? Beating a guy that clearly checked out mentally after winning his Gold doesn't count for much in my book. 

 MSU, you spend an awful lot of time responding to my posts considering my grasp of wrestling is so weak.  

Ultimately, this is a subjective argument that can go on indefinitely so each fan has to decide on their own. Personally,  I feel that Pico was not a phenom because, yes, placing 1st in something of note is necessary to be considered essentially an elite of the elite.  If we look at the last several years, we can review what some Americans have accomplished at a young age and play a game of which guy doesn't belong with the others?

Kyle Snyder: World Gold; Jr. World Champion; NCAA Champion all by the age of 19

J'Den Cox: Olympic Bronze; 2x NCAA Champion by the age of 21.

Dayton Fix: Jr. World Champion; World Team member

Spencer Lee: 2x Jr. World Champion; 2x NCAA Champion

 Mark Hall: 2x Jr. World Champion; NCAA Champion

Mekhi Lewis: Jr. World Champion; NCAA Champion

Gable Steveson: Jr. World Champion

Aaron Pico: 0 Jr. World Championships; 0 world teams, didn't compete in college 

Edited by Flying-Tiger

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