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Wow this is getting very petty. Hammerlock is just saying there is reason to doubt that Lee is elite in his mental toughness. There are reasons to believe Lee is very tough (like wrestling through his injuries at times), but there are some reasons to doubt it too. We really don’t know. Fix was basically in fist fights with Gilman and won, so he proved he is tough. If Lee is healthy enough to be much improved for NCAAs then why couldn’t he wrestle freestyle this year? Maybe Lee really is injured very badly and he is super tough, but it just seems so questionable that he can wrestle so well at NCAAs and then not wrestle at after that. 

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This debate calls for a rather pertinent question. Of those taking a rather negative stance on Lee, what is your opinion of Iowa?  On the flip side, of those defending Lee, are you an Iowa fan?

is there anyone truly neutral on either side of this debate?  Truly, methinks nearly everyone’s stance is influenced by there Iowa position......

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1 minute ago, MSU158 said:

This debate calls for a rather pertinent question. Of those taking a rather negative stance on Lee, what is your opinion of Iowa?  On the flip side, of those defending Lee, are you an Iowa fan?

is there anyone truly neutral on either side of this debate?  Truly, methinks nearly everyone’s stance is influenced by there Iowa position......

Whats your stance on the issue? Cause based on this post you just showed up to act superior. And what's your evidence that I am some superficially minded iowa basher. 

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5 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

Whats your stance on the issue? Cause based on this post you just showed up to act superior. And what's your evidence that I am some superficially minded iowa basher. 

I don’t deny my stance, which is why I haven’t personally weighed in. I admit some Iowa bias and know that probably influences my belief in Lee being truly effected by substantial health issues.  

I will say I felt the same way about McDonough all his senior season and there were a ton of naysayers that even stayed In denial after he had surgery at the end of the season. 

Honestly, are you truly neutral when it comes to Iowa or are you trying to say that stance doesn't influence you in the slightest?

 

edited to add:

Also, this wasn’t meant solely at you or even mainly. I noticed the usual suspects on this thread as well on BOTH sides. I honestly was interested if there was anyone truly neutral with a strong opinion either way. 

Edited by MSU158

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

I like  IOWA!!!!! Not as much as I like Cornell but as much as I like any other d1 program. But I am more interested in analyzing the sport as a whole than waving pom poms!

 

 

I truly appreciate the answer. I was legitimately interested.  Without an Iowa interest I would like to think I would still believe Lee’s issues were health related and any mental issues that may have reared themselves were only a direct result of the inevitable frustration with the roadblocks those health issues caused. 

I guess next season should be a very large indicator. If he runs through the full season like a buzzsaw, I would heavily lean towards that. If the same issues plague next season, I will quickly come to your side of things. 

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I would say I’m neutral.  I’m a PSU guy who doesn’t care much for Iowa, but I love Spencer Lee.  Maybe that makes me not neutral idk.

Anyway, I think Spencer Lee has definitely battled health issues the past 3 years.  He also ended up on top of the podium and was runner up once in those 3 seasons.

I would call Lee super tough, but can understand those that think maybe others are tougher.

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As stated in a previous post, Iowa has historically been mute on their guys wrestling hurt or injured.  Despite their approach, there were comments all year by the coaching staff and Lee himself regarding not being healthy and wrestling through adversity.  You have to not want to hear what's being said to not realize what was going on.  As Terry says, Haters will be Haters and this board has plenty of those.   Brands said in an interview during the season that Lee's been sick and banged up all year and then at nationals he said "I don't know what he said in that press conference, because he needs to give himself a lot of credit, Spencer Lee is one tough character."  How can anyone question 1. his toughness and 2. the fact he wasn't healthy for the majority of the season?  No one is going to come out and say he had xxxxx.  It's not happening out of anybody in that Iowa room.   The kid is too classy to ever use being hurt as an excuse.  He said it nationals when he said this title means more because he had to wrestle through adversity.  When asked to elaborate he said, I'm not going there...  It's a new year, so I'm looking forward to it and I hope he and the team stays healthy.  It's a long season and a tough sport.    

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31 minutes ago, KTI said:

As stated in a previous post, Iowa has historically been mute on their guys wrestling hurt or injured.  Despite their approach, there were comments all year by the coaching staff and Lee himself regarding not being healthy and wrestling through adversity.  You have to not want to hear what's being said to not realize what was going on.  As Terry says, Haters will be Haters and this board has plenty of those.   Brands said in an interview during the season that Lee's been sick and banged up all year and then at nationals he said "I don't know what he said in that press conference, because he needs to give himself a lot of credit, Spencer Lee is one tough character."  How can anyone question 1. his toughness and 2. the fact he wasn't healthy for the majority of the season?  No one is going to come out and say he had xxxxx.  It's not happening out of anybody in that Iowa room.   The kid is too classy to ever use being hurt as an excuse.  He said it nationals when he said this title means more because he had to wrestle through adversity.  When asked to elaborate he said, I'm not going there...  It's a new year, so I'm looking forward to it and I hope he and the team stays healthy.  It's a long season and a tough sport.    

 

They say Kemerer had a torn ACL, so I guess they disclose some injuries but not others. I only inquire because people around here like talking about Spencer's condition so much that it would seem someone would know about it and it would eventually become more widely known. Not that I care, really. I am more interested in the idea that this is kept like a State Secret as if the fate of Iowa wrestling depends on the secrecy of Lee's condition this past season. 

Edited by TBar1977

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43 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

They say Kemerer had a torn ACL, so I guess they disclose some injuries but not others. I only inquire because people around here like talking about Spencer's condition so much that it would seem someone would know about it and it would eventually become more widely known. Not that I care, really. I am more interested in the idea that this is kept like a State Secret as if the fate of Iowa wrestling depends on the secrecy of Lee's condition this past season. 

Cmon, Kemerer's situation was completely different.  He missed the entire season and full disclosure is necessary to try to get that season back.  There is no perceived "competitive edge" to "make no excuses" in  Kemerer's situation.  Now, that isn't to say I agree with that philosophy.  Actually, I think it is rather archaic.  Pro athletes disclose injuries all the time, whether they are playing through them or not.  I know betting forces much of this disclosure, but I just don't see some  mental or physical benefit from public denial.

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56 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Cmon, Kemerer's situation was completely different.  He missed the entire season and full disclosure is necessary to try to get that season back.  There is no perceived "competitive edge" to "make no excuses" in  Kemerer's situation.  Now, that isn't to say I agree with that philosophy.  Actually, I think it is rather archaic.  Pro athletes disclose injuries all the time, whether they are playing through them or not.  I know betting forces much of this disclosure, but I just don't see some  mental or physical benefit from public denial.

What competitive edge exists today for Iowa to talk about how Spencer had to "go through a lot" or state "how tough he is" when referring to last season but then to not state what the deal actually was? Not saying they should or should not, and farnkly hardly care about what it actually was (or wasn't). I am just fascinated that they treat it like its a state secret. Like THAT is gonna help them somehow. 

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10 hours ago, MSU158 said:

This debate calls for a rather pertinent question. Of those taking a rather negative stance on Lee, what is your opinion of Iowa?  On the flip side, of those defending Lee, are you an Iowa fan?

is there anyone truly neutral on either side of this debate?  Truly, methinks nearly everyone’s stance is influenced by there Iowa position......

Your close but with Lee you get the worst of both worlds. the hardcore Iowa fans and the only PA matters fans.

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19 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

What competitive edge exists today for Iowa to talk about how Spencer had to "go through a lot" or state "how tough he is" when referring to last season but then to not state what the deal actually was? Not saying they should or should not, and farnkly hardly care about what it actually was (or wasn't). I am just fascinated that they treat it like its a state secret. Like THAT is gonna help them somehow. 

Hey, I actually agree with you about the cryptic nature crap. However, I do think you care about what it was simply to use it as ammo against Iowa. 

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39 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

Hey, I actually agree with you about the cryptic nature crap. However, I do think you care about what it was simply to use it as ammo against Iowa. 

 

I think whatever "it" was, "it" is probably way over blown. Afterall, he competed pretty well despite whatever "it" was.  The whole state secret feel to "it" has the aura of the kid who is too invested in a small deception to give "it" up. Almost as if it it wasn't enough for Lee to win a 2nd NCAA title, they have to say he won it with one hand (the mystery gassing condition) tied behind his back. He sounds way more mythical this way, you see. 

 

Edited by TBar1977

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2 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

What competitive edge exists today for Iowa to talk about how Spencer had to "go through a lot" or state "how tough he is" when referring to last season but then to not state what the deal actually was? Not saying they should or should not, and farnkly hardly care about what it actually was (or wasn't). I am just fascinated that they treat it like its a state secret. Like THAT is gonna help them somehow. 

Is it possible that Lee just simply doesn't want to talk about his injuries/illness, and by law, everyone else in the program has to abide by that?  Doesn't HAVE to be some state secrecy conspiracy does it or hyperbole master plan?

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Spencer Lee has wrestled at the NCAA champships twice. He's a 2x National champ and still has 2 years to go. He's a 3x World champ. And yet, he's lost his desire. He isn't tough enough. He's not one of the better college wrestlers. 

Yes, he is seriously letting down his side, because.... why was that again?

 

 

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On 6/26/2019 at 8:47 PM, hammerlockthree said:

I think he has a real problem getting mentally ready for a war of a match every time, and thats perfectly understandable, because he steam rolls through people so incredibly, why not assume matches are gonna go that way. At NCAAs, the atmosphere is electric, and I think that help him get up, thats not a knock.  

When the pressure the biggest your mental toughness is put to test. The NCAAs are when the pressure is most on. There is no way someone who is not mentally tough, is going to respond positively to the atmosphere at ncaas, with the pressure that comes with every match.

Also Fix completely shut down when he had to wrestle Suriano, maybe hes not that tough either. 

Lee is one of the most mentally tough guys in the Ncaa, I would probably give yianni the nod, but that doesnt make Lee less elite.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

Is it possible that Lee just simply doesn't want to talk about his injuries/illness, and by law, everyone else in the program has to abide by that?  Doesn't HAVE to be some state secrecy conspiracy does it or hyperbole master plan?

 

Whether Lee talks about it is irrelevant. Its the non stop defense of the mystery illness by everyone else who talks about "it" that is fascinating to watch. It is as if the public doesn't know the illness existed they won't be able to appreciate his true greatness i.e. being able to win NCAA championships despite being ill. Whenever anyone doesn't toe the party line the denizens come out to right the wrongs in defending the super human angle to this last title. I might understand it better if I were a marketing guru. Fascinating to watch the psychology of this story. 

Edited by TBar1977

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