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Zain - Yanni outcome?

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8 minutes ago, hammerlockthree said:

you can see my first reply above, but I couldn't resist asking, do you separate "coaching" from "administrating". 

Actually I don't. He's hired to coach the Penn State wrestling program. However he best sees fit, whether handling the x's and o's or the fundraising or the administration or whatever, he is the coach and he knows what's best for his program. I will say this so you don't think I'm avoiding the question. I don't see anybody else taking his wrestlers and doing any better than he did and I certainly could see him taking some other coaches wrestlers and doing better than that coach did.

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After countless reviews, who really knows the correct outcome of that 2nd match?

That's right.  No one.

Therein lies the problem.

Let the courts wrestle with it.

They'll come up with a decision, and we'll nod our heads and move on.

Such is our sport.

 

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11 hours ago, ConnorsDad said:

Specific Points

...

No challenge can be requested after the end of the regular time of a period, except when the points are added to the scoreboard after the referee’s whistle or in case action occurred just before the time is over. The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what T R Foley from Intermat said and that may well be true. However, there are a couple paragraphs under the section titled "Specific Points" where there is wording that is taken by everybody as a rule. These concern the one challenge per match and loss of a point for a failed challenge. If these are only supposed to be guidelines, it's very poorly marked and at no place does it say these are only guidelines and not actual rules. Another point is that this is the only place in the entire rule book where the words "specific points" are used and have a section like that. Also, if you look up at the part above that was pasted in from the rulebook, this is the part that deals with the 5 second part in the specific points section. As you can see from that paragraph, it deals with challenges at the end of a period. So it's possible that the 5-second guideline is only for challenging something that occurs at the end of a period. In any case, the uww rulebook should  list the rules that are to be followed and, if it is not a rule, then leave it out.

As far as the match itself, I thought the move was Zain's the first time I watched it but I can see how any interpretation is reasonable. I can also see how reading this that people would say that you must challenge within 5 seconds. Again it is very poorly worded and, if it's only a guideline, why are there some things in there that are always accepted as rules all of the time.

I'll say this again slower. There are many, MANY instances where the brick was thrown more than 5 seconds later and some 30+ seconds later that the challenge was allowed at the World Championships. If this is the crutch of the argument it is very weak and will easily be dismissed.

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10 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

Yes, very fair since the only point is that Koll blamed the ref by saying he shouldn't have stopped the action, ostensibly depriving him of riding Elinsky out. 

I mean I guess him ultimately saying he himself made the mistake in how he wrestled that re-start, and credited the opponent for his explosive technique, are also valid points and shows while he didn't agree with the stalemate, he is not just simply blaming the referee and not taking accountability for his own actions...as you are portraying.  But I guess it depends on which type of glasses you are reading the quote through.

Edited by Lurker

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45 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I mean I guess him ultimately saying he himself made the mistake in how he wrestled that re-start, and credited the opponent for his explosive technique, are also valid points and shows while he didn't agree with the stalemate, he is not just simply blaming the referee and not taking accountability for his own actions...as you are portraying.  But I guess it depends on which type of glasses you are reading the quote through.

That is fair. He took some responsibility for what happened after the re start. That does not, however, remove the fact Koll said the ref should not have stopped the action.

When Kill does that he is building in an excuse and laying part of the blame on the officiating which is exactly what he is doing in Zain v. Yianni. Old habits die hard.

 

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1 hour ago, BobDole said:

I'll say this again slower. There are many, MANY instances where the brick was thrown more than 5 seconds later and some 30+ seconds later that the challenge was allowed at the World Championships. If this is the crutch of the argument it is very weak and will easily be dismissed.

And Ill repeat slower, I agree. Im just saying it is a poorly worded "rule" specific point, case study, whatever the hell it is.

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44 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

That is fair. He took some responsibility for what happened after the re start. That does not, however, remove the fact Koll said the ref should not have stopped the action.

When Kill does that he is building in an excuse and laying part of the blame on the officiating which is exactly what he is doing in Zain v. Yianni. Old habits die hard.

 

What you are describing, saying the ref shouldn’t have stopped the action, is something that every coach, athlete, fan, media person, YOU, ME, etc etc...has done and will continue to do. Comment on officials calls.  Disagree with officials calls. The statement in its whole was a far cry from outright blaming the official for the loss and not taking any responsibility, and the one comment against the stalemate is not the only relevant comment. As such not a big deal, at all. Do you feel the same way every time Cael disagrees with a call and talks about it? We all know the answer. And that’s the point. 

 

Happy 4th!

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11 minutes ago, Lurker said:

What you are describing, saying the ref shouldn’t have stopped the action, is something that every coach, athlete, fan, media person, YOU, ME, etc etc...has done and will continue to do. Comment on officials calls.  Disagree with officials calls. The statement in its whole was a far cry from outright blaming the official for the loss and not taking any responsibility, and the one comment against the stalemate is not the only relevant comment. As such not a big deal, at all. Do you feel the same way every time Cael disagrees with a call and talks about it? We all know the answer. And that’s the point. 

Happy 4th!

 

I find most wrestlers don't bring up officiating after losses. They tend to be too humble for that. There are some, but I don't think most. Check out this interview with Zahid Valencia following his loss to Mark Hall at the 2017 NCAA tourney. Guy is asked multiple times about the refs and he refuses to go down that road. Humility personified. 

 

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I’ve seen said interview and it was good. And yes there are examples you could point out where an athlete with a camera in his face could talk about an official and does not. Of course there out there. If you think that means it doesn’t happen more often than not......okay. (Are you wanting to widdle this one down to on camera time only or...??) 

 It’s your right to believe that. 

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I’ve seen said interview and it was good. And yes there are examples you could point out where an athlete with a camera in his face could talk about an official and does not. Of course there out there. If you think that means it doesn’t happen more often than not......okay. (Are you wanting to widdle this one down to on camera time only or...??) 

 It’s your right to believe that. 

 

We are getting sidetracked. The one thing I am sure of here is that Koll recently blamed an official for stopping one of his matches years ago, thus partly causing him to lose, and he's got an 18 page protest (which I believe was written by lawyers because Koll mentioned lawyers to Dernlan on the Rudis podcast) to try to over turn the result of a wrestling match at WTT. 

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On 7/3/2019 at 8:08 AM, BobDole said:

I'll say this again slower. There are many, MANY instances where the brick was thrown more than 5 seconds later and some 30+ seconds later that the challenge was allowed at the World Championships. If this is the crutch of the argument it is very weak and will easily be dismissed.

I have no idea what's going on with this legal action and where they are in the process, but from the outside looking in, doesn't look like it's easily dismissed. Again, I have no clue what's going on behind the scenes and Bob Dole (very knowledgeable poster, IMO) may end up being right. 

I like both, Yianni and Zain. I didn't like the way Match 2 ended (obviously many of us didn't), especially with so much on the line. Then again, we see big matches decided by controversial calls all the time.

Yianni and Zain are two elite wrestlers. I'll be fine with either decision, re-wrestle Match 2 or just give the spot to Zain if they feel it was called correctly. Just want to see this resolved.

 

 

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Maybe meaningless, but I found this very interesting. Was watching the Flo video of Yasar Dogu preview that had Bader breaking down the Yianni-Zain Final X controversy.

Anyway at about 3:02 into the video check at the referee to the right sitting at the table and try to lip read him. Does he think the call was bs?

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On 6/30/2019 at 11:04 PM, TBar1977 said:

whatever is reasonable given the circumstances. It's not an exact time.

Not that Pyles & Company are experts, but on the relevant FRL, they seemed pretty certain the rule is 5 seconds from the time the points go on the board, and I haven't heard them correct themselves since.

I doubt very much Yianni's appeal will result in another match (or two), but I absolutely understand his frustration with the officiating.

Edit: I see the 5 second issue has been exhaustively debated, without consensus.

Edited by whaletail
new info

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3 minutes ago, whaletail said:

Not that Pyles & Company are experts, but on the relevant FRL, they seemed pretty certain the rule is 5 seconds from the time the points go on the board, and I haven't heard them correct themselves since.

I doubt very much Yianni's appeal will result in another match (or two), but I absolutely understand his frustration with the officiating.

The 5 seconds is not a rule. 

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1 minute ago, TBar1977 said:

The 5 seconds is not a rule. 

Although I understand that there may have been challenges accepted after 5 seconds at Worlds, I don't believe it's been conclusively established that it isn't a rule.  Perhaps I missed a relevant post, but I'm not sure anyone's even mentioned when the language was added, or provided specific data regarding the frequency of challenges after 5 seconds has elapsed.

Regardless, the fact that challenges have been accepted after 5 seconds is absolutely relevant, but not persuasive (let alone dispositive).  Especially absent any discussion of the context surrounding any of them.

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1 hour ago, hammerlockthree said:

Neither is "if your head touches you are out of bounds" but that's enforced across the board.

Good.  5 seconds is not.  

 

1 hour ago, whaletail said:

Although I understand that there may have been challenges accepted after 5 seconds at Worlds, I don't believe it's been conclusively established that it isn't a rule.  Perhaps I missed a relevant post, but I'm not sure anyone's even mentioned when the language was added, or provided specific data regarding the frequency of challenges after 5 seconds has elapsed.

Regardless, the fact that challenges have been accepted after 5 seconds is absolutely relevant, but not persuasive (let alone dispositive).  Especially absent any discussion of the context surrounding any of them.

Foley argued that this is meant to be a guideline not a hard rule and that this can be clearly seen if you consider a challenge for points that are not awarded.  

“The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge.”

So supposing that’s a hard 5 second rule for questioning points awarded.   If the coach thinks points should have been awarded, but were not, then the questioned score could have been on the board since the beginning of the match since it didn’t change.   Does that mean he cannot challenge it?  Does that mean that rule is not applicable and there is no time limit on challenging points not awarded?  Does that mean the mat chair should interpret it as something along the lines of the coach has 5 seconds from when the points would reasonably be expected to have appeared on the official scoreboard to request a challenge?  Or does it mean 5 seconds is not strictly 5 seconds?

 

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Just noting that tomorrow will be exactly a month since the day that Coach Koll said (on the June 11 Rudis podcast) that he'd be submitting his written letter/appeal/petition to USA Wrestling and USOC.  

There are a lot of issues and it's a quasi-legal process, so you'd expect that it would take a little while, but we could be approaching the time when the authorities' delay in issuing a decision could start becoming harmful to the wrestlers.  If further wrestling is ordered, you'd want them to have enough time to prepare for the wrestle-off and then for the winner to be able to prepare for the Worlds.  You'd also want Zain to have peace of mind and clarity that his World-centric training won't be interrupted if there is no wrestle-off.  

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20 minutes ago, Fishbane said:

Good.  5 seconds is not.  

 

Foley argued that this is meant to be a guideline not a hard rule and that this can be clearly seen if you consider a challenge for points that are not awarded.  

“The coach has 5 seconds from the time the questioned score is posted on the official scoreboard to request a challenge.”

So supposing that’s a hard 5 second rule for questioning points awarded.   If the coach thinks points should have been awarded, but were not, then the questioned score could have been on the board since the beginning of the match since it didn’t change.   Does that mean he cannot challenge it?  Does that mean that rule is not applicable and there is no time limit on challenging points not awarded?  Does that mean the mat chair should interpret it as something along the lines of the coach has 5 seconds from when the points would reasonably be expected to have appeared on the official scoreboard to request a challenge?  Or does it mean 5 seconds is not strictly 5 seconds?

 

Good luck getting an intelligent answer on this.  I asked this exact same question on here a few weeks ago when debating whether freestyle rules were vague.  They took their marbles and went home.

Edited by tbert

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