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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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Logic dictates that the farther out the match is scheduled is based on Dake's request. It has no benefit for Dieringer, and in fact only hurts him. We know they've been pushing to gave the match as soon as possible so they can begin their prep for Worlds if he's the rep. The reporting on the issue all lays this on Dake's doorstep. There is no reason to schedule the match this close to Worlds unless Dake requested or it was mandated it be this late by a medical professional.

This is sports. Being healthy on the day of competition is part of it. As previously said, they're not moving worlds for Dake. Moving the wrestle off is already problematic, but also moving it to the exact optimal specifications of one competitor is a Horse of a different color.

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3 hours ago, nom said:

Thanks for the responses above.  And I do understand how the optics look.

I am curious whether the note said Dake cannot wrestle, period, until Aug 17.  I doubt this.  If this is the case he could not possibly be ready to wrestle at final X at that time.  He’d clearly need more time to get ready.

On the comment that he should not be allowed to wrestle overseas ... I’d like to explore the logic here.  I’m curious.  Let’s progress through some steps I think are fair.

Based on your thinking  ... for each of these, should Dake be  allowed to do it before Aug 17?

1. Is Dake allowed to wrestle for 1 minute stretches, live, in Ithaca?

2.  Can he wrestle a full match live in Ithaca - knowing he can quit if needed to avoid aggravating injury?

3.  Can he travel to another state and wrestler a full match live?

4.  Can he bring on practice partners and wrestle a full match live?

5.  Could he set up his own mini tournament in the U.S. to get a feel for multiple matches - again recognizing he could protect his injury as needed?

6.  If this existed, could he wrestle at an actual tournament in the US given he hasn’t competed for a while and needs to shake the ‘rust off’ - recognizing that he can quit at any point to protect injury.

7.  Could he wrestle live goes with a partner in Canada?

8.  Could he do #6 but in another country?

 

I’m trying to use logic and facts to understand why him being allowed to go live in the practice room (while dealing with the need to heal and not aggravate an injury) is different than going live in an ‘official’ competition that means nothing and still affords him the ability to have options related to his injury.  

If the issue is that it is overseas - I do not know of the logic that would put the line there. 

 

 

 

I guess it goes back to what the doctor’s note said, but as others alluded to I’d bet it says “compete.”

If that’s the case, anything but #6 and #8 above would not be competing (assuming the mini-tournament in #5 is “unofficial.”

I don’t think it  being overseas has anything to do with the outcry.  Just that he’s wrestling an official match(es) that isn’t against Dieringer.

 

Edited by 1032004

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

So two big questions I have (and I don’t know if anyone on here has the factual answers to):  1) Did the original note say he cannot compete until August 17th, or the doctor recommended a date of Aug17 for the series?  Very big difference between the two. 2) Did the Dake camp lawyer up, as people have been claiming and tearing them down for, or did they just bring up the fact it would be unlawful to block him from competing? Again, very big difference between the two. 

Not sure if we’ll ever get the answer to #1. The answer to #2 might be out there but I don’t know what it is.

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I'm glad that calmer heads are involved in the discussion at this point.  

At this time I'm in the camp of the point made above .... being cleared to compete is different than being ready to compete.   Let's take Dake and this situation out of it.

 

Returning world gold medalist named Dwayne gets injured.  Can't be ready in time for Final X.  I believe the following is very reasonable ....

 -- Dwayne works to get healed and ready to go.

-- Based on discussion with docs and trainers, Dwayne develops a plan to be able to wrestle the Final X match before the cutoff set by the rules (which is shortly before World Championships).

- Dwayne's team believes he can be in good enough shape to fully train and get ready for the Final X matches by Date  YYY.  Until that time, Dwayne is not able to fully train due to limitations imposed by the injury and the need for it to heal.

-- Dwayne's team believes he will need a few weeks to get into wrestling shape, getting his timing back, making sure the injury actually is healed and feeling ok, and so forth.  Thus they seek a date of ZZZ for the Final X matches.  In fact, ZZZ is many weeks ahead of the deadline that would be in place.

-- During that interim time, Dwayne and team have a plan for how they want to get him back in shape and ready to go.  Part of this plan includes a lot of practice, live goes in the room, and some actual 'official' matches they can choose to treat as exhibition.  

What the is so bad about all of this? 

If the returning medalist is able to delay the final X match due to injury, it only makes sense that the returning medalist be able to train and get back to wrestling shape ahead of that final X match.  Who cares if part of that training includes 'live' matches that he can treat as exhibition.   

No one has been able to explain why him going live in a practice room is not a big deal but going live in an official match is a big deal.  If you are so upset about an official match, the only thing I can think of is that you also feel that he should not have ANY live match before Final X and that just doesn't seem right.  Please provide the logical reason why it is different (take the emotion out).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

I guess it goes back to what the doctor’s note said, but as others alluded to I’d bet it says “compete.”

If that’s the case, anything but #6 and #8 above would not be competing (assuming the mini-tournament in #5 is “unofficial.”

I don’t think it  being overseas has anything to do with the outcry.  Just that he’s wrestling an official match(es) that isn’t against Dieringer.

 

One of the posters above actually pointed to overseas as being the issue.  I tend to think that the location should have nothing to do with it.  

Again, I doubt the doctor's note said Kyle may not wrestle live before Aug 17th.  Do you believe he should be permitted to wrestle live before Aug 17th.  I hope you do.  I hope any reasonable person would.  If so, what would it matter if it is in his own practice room, or at the OTC against someone outside his camp, or against someone from Bulgaria at a venue in Spain.  I am not getting the difference.

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3 minutes ago, nom said:

I'm glad that calmer heads are involved in the discussion at this point.  

At this time I'm in the camp of the point made above .... being cleared to compete is different than being ready to compete.   Let's take Dake and this situation out of it.

 

Returning world gold medalist named Dwayne gets injured.  Can't be ready in time for Final X.  I believe the following is very reasonable ....

 -- Dwayne works to get healed and ready to go.

-- Based on discussion with docs and trainers, Dwayne develops a plan to be able to wrestle the Final X match before the cutoff set by the rules (which is shortly before World Championships).

- Dwayne's team believes he can be in good enough shape to fully train and get ready for the Final X matches by Date  YYY.  Until that time, Dwayne is not able to fully train due to limitations imposed by the injury and the need for it to heal.

-- Dwayne's team believes he will need a few weeks to get into wrestling shape, getting his timing back, making sure the injury actually is healed and feeling ok, and so forth.  Thus they seek a date of ZZZ for the Final X matches.  In fact, ZZZ is many weeks ahead of the deadline that would be in place.

-- During that interim time, Dwayne and team have a plan for how they want to get him back in shape and ready to go.  Part of this plan includes a lot of practice, live goes in the room, and some actual 'official' matches they can choose to treat as exhibition.  

What the is so bad about all of this? 

If the returning medalist is able to delay the final X match due to injury, it only makes sense that the returning medalist be able to train and get back to wrestling shape ahead of that final X match.  Who cares if part of that training includes 'live' matches that he can treat as exhibition.   

No one has been able to explain why him going live in a practice room is not a big deal but going live in an official match is a big deal.  If you are so upset about an official match, the only thing I can think of is that you also feel that he should not have ANY live match before Final X and that just doesn't seem right.  Please provide the logical reason why it is different (take the emotion out).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is all great for making sure we have the optimal Kyle Dake for World's. If he wins the spot, there is no doubt we are getting the best Kyle Dake there is and I will root like hell for him. If Dake doesn't win the spot are we getting a fully-optimized Ringer for World's? Maybe not. 

My main beef is 1.) if Dake gets re injured there is absolutely nothing wrong with this logic and approach that says he shouldn't push back his wrestle off with Ringer even further. If that happens are we going to wrestle off in September? 2.) If Ringer gets injured waiting around for Dake to get 110% then tough luck. Ringer is out and Dake just gets the spot. I get this is all to help our returning medalists. However, there does come a point where giving Dake too much room on this becomes completely unfair for Ringer. At some point the process is designed for someone to earn the spot and not just there to make sure we have Dake at 110%. This is wrestling, no one is ever 110%. 3.) If JB did this to Dake a couple years back Dake would have lost his ever loving mind. 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, nom said:

One of the posters above actually pointed to overseas as being the issue.  I tend to think that the location should have nothing to do with it.  

Again, I doubt the doctor's note said Kyle may not wrestle live before Aug 17th.  Do you believe he should be permitted to wrestle live before Aug 17th.  I hope you do.  I hope any reasonable person would.  If so, what would it matter if it is in his own practice room, or at the OTC against someone outside his camp, or against someone from Bulgaria at a venue in Spain.  I am not getting the difference.

I think there is a big difference between practicing at your own OTC and internationally. Your training partners at your OTC know you, your body and your injury. Their main focus is going to be on keeping you healthy. Someone from Bulgaria doesn't give a flip about Dake's injury and trying to keep Dake healthy. In fact, it could be the opposite. Some dude from Bulgaria might try to exploit that injury. 

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6 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

This is all great for making sure we have the optimal Kyle Dake for World's. If he wins the spot, there is no doubt we are getting the best Kyle Dake there is and I will root like hell for him. If Dake doesn't win the spot are we getting a fully-optimized Ringer for World's? Maybe not. 

My main beef is 1.) if Dake gets re injured there is absolutely nothing wrong with this logic and approach that says he shouldn't push back his wrestle off with Ringer even further. If that happens are we going to wrestle off in September? 2.) If Ringer gets injured waiting around for Dake to get 110% then tough luck. Ringer is out and Dake just gets the spot. I get this is all to help our returning medalists. However, there does come a point where giving Dake too much room on this becomes completely unfair for Ringer. At some point the process is designed for someone to earn the spot and not just there to make sure we have Dake at 110%. This is wrestling, no one is ever 110%. 3.) If JB did this to Dake a couple years back Dake would have lost his ever loving mind. 

If Dake get's reinjured he is SOL. I can't imagine a scenario where he is allowed to push back again unless you are aware of another rule allowing it. If Dieringer gets injured before the Final X match, that sucks for him but the system is designed to favor Dake as a returning medalist. Dislike that logic if you want, but it is how USA Wrestling has designed the system. It's supposed to favor defending world medalists. For years this worked against Dake, now it works in his favor. That's what a wrestler-neutral rule does.

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4 minutes ago, ugarte said:

If Dake get's reinjured he is SOL. I can't imagine a scenario where he is allowed to push back again unless you are aware of another rule allowing it. If Dieringer gets injured before the Final X match, that sucks for him but the system is designed to favor Dake as a returning medalist. Dislike that logic if you want, but it is how USA Wrestling has designed the system. It's supposed to favor defending world medalists. For years this worked against Dake, now it works in his favor. That's what a wrestler-neutral rule does.

Why is Dake SOL? By all the logic that all of this is fine why not push it back further? There is still time before USA Wrestling has to have a guy at that weight? Why can Dake push it back this far but another couple weeks is the breaking point?

I get that this designed to aid the returning medalist. I just think at some point it becomes unreasonable, like when a guy is competing internationally but still won't wrestle his opponent for another month and a half. 

Edited by osufan12

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This is why I don't like "protect the medalist" as a model for team selection. I didn't like it when it worked against Dake, and I don't like it now that it works for Dake. I think medalists should get some kind of preferential treatment with regard to the competition itself -- e.g. #1 seeding in a tournament, byes to the semis, etc. -- but anything beyond that opens the door for exactly what we're getting now, medalists maximizing their edge and fans b#tching and moaning about why the rules suck.

There is no perfect system and there never will be. Either allow subjectivity (e.g. Russian system) or keep it as objective as possible (former American system before JB era). We're in between the two extremes now, hence peak b#itching.

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11 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

This is why I don't like "protect the medalist" as a model for team selection. I didn't like it when it worked against Dake, and I don't like it now that it works for Dake. I think medalists should get some kind of preferential treatment with regard to the competition itself -- e.g. #1 seeding in a tournament, byes to the semis, etc. -- but anything beyond that opens the door for exactly what we're getting now, medalists maximizing their edge and fans b#tching and moaning about why the rules suck.

There is no perfect system and there never will be. Either allow subjectivity (e.g. Russian system) or keep it as objective as possible (former American system before JB era). We're in between the two extremes now, hence peak b#itching.

During the eight years of the "JB era" (2011-18) we won 13 golds. In the eight previous years (2003-10), we only won three.

Returning medalists inevitably have bullseyes on their backs. Maybe there's something to giving them some protection.

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On 7/3/2019 at 7:01 PM, Housebuye said:

This isn’t a wrestling argument. Coach J is a great coach. He knows wrestling extremely well.  It just isn’t relevant here. We aren’t talking about what is best for Dake in terms of his wrestling ability. 

Fair enough.   Couch J's comment seems to be very succinct and sums up much of the thread?    

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42 minutes ago, Katie said:

During the eight years of the "JB era" (2011-18) we won 13 golds. In the eight previous years (2003-10), we only won three.

Returning medalists inevitably have bullseyes on their backs. Maybe there's something to giving them some protection.

Absolutely not enough data to make any mental leap such as the one you just made. There are so many variables at play, I don't even know how you would even start to make that case with any mathematical credibility.

Major factors that influenced medal count:
1. Luck (JBs and Snyders only come along every once in a long while, and those two together are responsible for a hefty number of the medals you mentioned)
2. USA Wrestling system and coaching substantially improving. You can see how competitive it became throughout the years by looking at how insanely competitive even true freshmen are now in college. It used to be rare and "wow-inducing" to see a freshman NCAA champ. Now it is surprising if too many years go by without a few.
3. Advent of the RTC
4. Substantial expansion of the wrestling economy (sponsored athletes can now earn a good living with wrestling, thereby allowing for complete focus on the sport and career longevity/consistency).

Most importantly, I don't think the team would've changed much if at all under the "old" system anyway. The same reps likely would've been the same reps with possibly one or two exceptions in that entire era.

Edited by wrestlingnerd

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3 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Absolutely not enough data to make any mental leap such as the one you just made. There are so many variables at play, I don't even know how you would even start to make that case with any mathematical credibility.

Major factors that influenced medal count:
1. Luck (JBs and Snyders only come along every once in a long while, and those two together are responsible for a hefty number of the medals you mentioned)
2. USA Wrestling system and coaching substantially improving. You can see how competitive it became throughout the years by looking at how insanely competitive even true freshmen are now in college. It used to be rare and "wow-inducing" to see a freshman NCAA champ. Now it is surprising if too many years go by without a few.
3. Advent of the RTC
4. Substantial expansion of the wrestling economy (sponsored athletes can now earn a good living with wrestling, thereby allowing for complete focus on the sport and career longevity/consistency).

I think you should re-read what I wrote.

You complained about the "JB era." In response, I let you know that era has actually been very successful.

Then, I said "maybe" there is something to protecting returning medalists. The word "maybe" should have told you I was not asserting anything with "mathematical credibility." I was merely saying that our system has worked well during the period you complain about -- and that system included protections for returning medalists.

Let me ask you this. Has the qualifying system failed anyone in recent years? If so, who?

 

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1 hour ago, nom said:

One of the posters above actually pointed to overseas as being the issue.  I tend to think that the location should have nothing to do with it.  

Again, I doubt the doctor's note said Kyle may not wrestle live before Aug 17th.  Do you believe he should be permitted to wrestle live before Aug 17th.  I hope you do.  I hope any reasonable person would.  If so, what would it matter if it is in his own practice room, or at the OTC against someone outside his camp, or against someone from Bulgaria at a venue in Spain.  I am not getting the difference.

The difference is that while physically for Dake it may not be much different, “competing” in an official event is different from wrestling live in practice.

Someone earlier mentioned that Ringer needs the Dogu to help his potential seeding.   If Dake loses (even by injury default) in Spain, could that hurt his seeding for future events?

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

The difference is that while physically for Dake it may not be much different, “competing” in an official event is different from wrestling live in practice.

Someone earlier mentioned that Ringer needs the Dogu to help his potential seeding.   If Dake loses (even by injury default) in Spain, could that hurt his seeding for future events?

Spain is not a "ranking event." Seedings are based on points (not losses) and there are no points to be had in Spain, or so I am told.

Edited by AHamilton

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16 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

For asking someone to re-read, you sure could use your own advice. I didn't complain about the JB era. Who would? I said I didn't like the selection system. The two are not the same....

I never said you complained about very single aspect of the "JB era." I simply said you complained about it. And in fact you did.

But I'm glad you think our system has produced good results during that time.

Edited by Katie

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5 minutes ago, Katie said:

I never said you complained about very single aspect of the "JB era." I simply said you complained about it. And in fact you did.

But I'm glad you think our system has produced good results during that time.

 

I did not complain about the era. I stated very simply that I prefer objective systems versus ones that make you wonder "what if" such as the one in place today and the one in place last year. You can dislike a system and still like an era. I think the selection system had very little to nothing to do with the results, but believe what you will. Both are just opinions.

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2 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

 

I did not complain about the era. I stated very simply that I prefer objective systems versus ones that make you wonder "what if" such as the one in place today and the one in place last year. You can dislike a system and still like an era. I think the selection system had very little to nothing to do with the results, but believe what you will. Both are just opinions.

In standard conversational English, if someone complains about the food on a flight, but does not complain about other aspects of the flight, we would still say that person complained about the flight.

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1 hour ago, ugarte said:

If Dake get's reinjured he is SOL. I can't imagine a scenario where he is allowed to push back again unless you are aware of another rule allowing it. If Dieringer gets injured before the Final X match, that sucks for him but the system is designed to favor Dake as a returning medalist. Dislike that logic if you want, but it is how USA Wrestling has designed the system. It's supposed to favor defending world medalists. For years this worked against Dake, now it works in his favor. That's what a wrestler-neutral rule does.

There is a major difference between it working against Dake in the past and for him now.  

When it worked against Dake (and it definitely did), it did so in a wrestler neutral rule as you stated.  Every returning medalist got the exact same advantage.  

But this time only one returning medalist is getting this advantage.  And instead of it being spelled out ahead of time (6 week delay for injury as an example), the rules allowed for a delay and then the rules stopped.  After that stop in rules negotiation took over and each guy is left to argue to get his.  Dake is clearly better at that argument than Dieringer (or Dake's camp is better than Dieringers). 

Dake should absolutely not be blamed for playing completely within the rules to get his best shot at making the team.  Neither should anyone be blamed for doing so on his behalf.

What should be blamed is USA Wrestling for writing such vague rules that could so easily be twisted by a guy willing to fight for his best chance.  The rule should have spelled out the time frame ahead of time, and it should have been a time frame that allowed both guys a chance to peak for Worlds.  Because the rules were so poorly written Dieringer got screwed in his preparations and Dake got unfairly villified in his.  

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1 minute ago, Katie said:

In standard conversational English, if someone complains about the food on a flight, but does not complain about other aspects of the flight, we would still say that person complained about the flight.

It is the hallmark of a self-indulgent egomaniac to constantly b*tch about what someone just told you they didn't say when it has no consequence to you. I couldn't care less what you think of what I said. I said very specifically one thing, corrected your misinterpretation of it, and now am telling you to move on because you were wrong.  I have praised the progress made by USAW many times on this board. I don't have to like every single detail about American wrestling just because I think it's great that we are now a top 2-3 country.

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11 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

It is the hallmark of a self-indulgent egomaniac to constantly b*tch about what someone just told you they didn't say when it has no consequence to you. I couldn't care less what you think of what I said. I said very specifically one thing, corrected your misinterpretation of it, and now am telling you to move on because you were wrong.  I have praised the progress made by USAW many times on this board. I don't have to like every single detail about American wrestling just because I think it's great that we are now a top 2-3 country.

I'm sorry you seem to think I'm a "self-indulgent egomaniac" who has "constantly b*tch[ed]" in this thread. Hopefully, in time, we'll be able to move on from this.

Edited by Katie

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