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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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16 hours ago, nom said:

OK - I've tried to read a lot of the posts and I have listened to FRL.

Here's what I have ----

1.  Dake camp and Dieringer camp agreed on a date for when they can wrestle the Final X matches.  This date was informed by a recommendation from a doctor.

 

One additional note here...has it been confirmed that Dieringer actually “agreed” to the date?  

Based on two articles I posted straight from the horse’s mouth (USA Wrestling), the wording would actually suggest that he did NOT “agree.”

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@1032004 - I won't disagree that there is a 'difference' in competing in a live competition.  But for this situation, the difference is not significant.  Dake can simply treat this as an exhibition.  He can default out at any point and it has no impact on him.  It has no impact on Dieringer either.  Dake is simply trying to get some live goes in before his Final X match.   

I don't get why it being in Spain is a big deal. 

@boconnell and @wrestlingnerd have valid points.

I would be completely fine with the following rules:

1) Wrestlers must wrestle at time of original Final X date

2) Wrestlers must wrestle no later than 1 month following the original Final X date

Both of the above would remove the squishiness of all of this.

I'm also ok with #3) which is what we have today ... injured medalist can have extra time to heal from injury and get back in shape to wrestle off ... up to X date (related to when team heads to World championships)

The fact is, we have #3 ... and nothing Dake is doing goes against today's rules.  

Can you imagine a scenario where the rules are written such that they dictate how a wrestler may or may not prepare for their final X match?  That would be out of hand.

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

 

One additional note here...has it been confirmed that Dieringer actually “agreed” to the date?  

Based on two articles I posted straight from the horse’s mouth (USA Wrestling), the wording would actually suggest that he did NOT “agree.”

Fair, I don't know.  Could alter to say that a date was settled upon by the powers that be.  

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2 hours ago, osufan12 said:

I think there is a big difference between practicing at your own OTC and internationally. Your training partners at your OTC know you, your body and your injury. Their main focus is going to be on keeping you healthy. Someone from Bulgaria doesn't give a flip about Dake's injury and trying to keep Dake healthy. In fact, it could be the opposite. Some dude from Bulgaria might try to exploit that injury. 

@osufan12 - Dake could easily wrestle with people that don't know him.  Does Pat Downey know him?  If they are going live are they truly focused on keeping healthy?   

Regarding your last point -- this would suggest that Dake is taking a risk. This might backfire.  I agree.    

All this said, are you proposing that given today's system where an injured medalist has the ability to delay is final X match, that the rules should be written in a way that prescribes how the wrestler can and can't prepare him or herself for that match. 

For example "The injured wrestler may practice but in no circumstance, even in practice, may they live wrestle with a wrestler they don't know well *** for greater than 2 minutes.  They may not do so because this would not be fair to the wrestler they will be competing against in final X.     

*** 'know well' is defined as having live wrestled with the wrestler at least 10 times in the past 2 years.'

 

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15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

One additional note here...has it been confirmed that Dieringer actually “agreed” to the date?  

Based on two articles I posted straight from the horse’s mouth (USA Wrestling), the wording would actually suggest that he did NOT “agree.”

Ringer agreed to the date as far as this was the absolute earliest Dake would wrestle. They are not happy how late this is happening. 

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6 minutes ago, nom said:

@osufan12 - Dake could easily wrestle with people that don't know him.  Does Pat Downey know him?  If they are going live are they truly focused on keeping healthy?   

Regarding your last point -- this would suggest that Dake is taking a risk. This might backfire.  I agree.    

All this said, are you proposing that given today's system where an injured medalist has the ability to delay is final X match, that the rules should be written in a way that prescribes how the wrestler can and can't prepare him or herself for that match. 

For example "The injured wrestler may practice but in no circumstance, even in practice, may they live wrestle with a wrestler they don't know well *** for greater than 2 minutes.  They may not do so because this would not be fair to the wrestler they will be competing against in final X.     

*** 'know well' is defined as having live wrestled with the wrestler at least 10 times in the past 2 years.'

 

If Dake is not training with people who have his health at the top of mind then that is just poor planning on his part. I would hope any senior level athlete who makes it this far is only training with trusted people who know his health situation and would never put him in a situation to comprise that. 

To not see a difference between training with your team and competing in competition is kind of silly, IMO. Pat Downey is not trying to make a name for himself in the wrestling room by taking out world gold medalist Kyle Dake. For some random European this weekend they can make a name for themselves by beating Kyle Dake. Do you think they care he is injured? Heck no. 

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Osufan12 - ok - I do agree that Dake is taking a risk. 

But I'm not getting how Dake taking this risk is unfair to Dieringer.  Can you expand on that?

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Everything you said makes a ton of sense, nom. It takes a biased eye to disagree with your thought process.

I think the thing that pssed off all the folks crying foul is the production of the second doctor's note (if that even happened) that allegedly cleared him to compete prior to the wrestle-off rescheduled date. I have not bothered to track all the drama since it doesn't matter anyway--what's done is done. But I could see how that is construed as a bridge too far.

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12 minutes ago, nom said:

Osufan12 - ok - I do agree that Dake is taking a risk. 

But I'm not getting how Dake taking this risk is unfair to Dieringer.  Can you expand on that?

I just think it is kind of crazy and ridiculous Dake is competing in tournaments when he is claiming he is too injured to wrestle Ringer for another month a half. If he can wrestle this weekend he can wrestle at Fargo.

But people have different opinions on that and that is fine.

I think it is really unfair to Ringer if Dake aggravates his injury. The general consensus seems to be if Dake gets hurt again then Ringer just gets the spot so no big deal to Ringer. But why do we assume that? Why wouldn't Dake just get another delay? Nothing prevents it. There is still time. This thing is pushed back so far it seems crazy to me to chance delaying it even further. 

Edited by osufan12

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49 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

I just think it is kind of crazy and ridiculous Dake is competing in tournaments when he is claiming he is too injured to wrestle Ringer for another month a half. If he can wrestle this weekend he can wrestle at Fargo.

But people have different opinions on that and that is fine.

I think it is really unfair to Ringer if Dake aggravates his injury. The general consensus seems to be if Dake gets hurt again then Ringer just gets the spot so no big deal to Ringer. But why do we assume that? Why wouldn't Dake just get another delay? Nothing prevents it. There is still time. This thing is pushed back so far it seems crazy to me to chance delaying it even further. 

The issue is if Dake were to have to wrestle Dieringer right when he is allowed to wrestle, unless Dake is on a different level(hes not), then Dake is at a huge disadvantage, so why bother allowing them to delay it in the first place. The goal is to have a fair wrestle off,  so why not let Dake get a competition in. Dieringer will also be wrestling at Dogu so its not like hes gonna get rusty himself.

Edited by Molsen

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The issue is if Dake were to have to wrestle Dieringer right when he is allowed to wrestle, unless Dake is on a different level(hes not), then Dake is at a huge disadvantage, so why bother allowing them to delay it in the first place. The goal is to have a fair wrestle off,  so why not let Dake get a competition in. Dieringer will also be wrestling at Dogu so its not like hes gonna get rusty himself.
The point of delaying is because the medalist is not healthy enough to compete. Not to allow him to delay for conditioning issues or minor injuries. Otherwise everyone can delay the wrestle off because of minor issues. If Dake is healthy enough to compete, that's that. He should be competing for his spot on the World Team as soon as he's healthy. This was designed to give the defending medalist AN advantage, not every possible advantage in the world.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

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11 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The issue is if Dake were to have to wrestle Dieringer right when he is allowed to wrestle, unless Dake is on a different level(hes not), then Dake is at a huge disadvantage, so why bother allowing them to delay it. The goal is to have a fair wrestle off,  so why not let Dake get a competition in. Dieringer will also be wrestling at Dogu so its not like hes gonna get rusty himself.

I disagree but I get it. However, by this logic there really is no date that is too late for a wrestle off as long as we get Dake at his best before World's. Again, this is great for getting the best Dake but does there come a point where if Ringer wins we aren't getting the best Ringer for World's because he has had to focus on Dake this long?

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1 hour ago, VakAttack said:

The point of delaying is because the medalist is not healthy enough to compete. Not to allow him to delay for conditioning issues or minor injuries. Otherwise everyone can delay the wrestle off because of minor issues. If Dake is healthy enough to compete, that's that. He should be competing for his spot on the World Team as soon as he's healthy. This was designed to give the defending medalist AN advantage, not every possible advantage in the world.

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As the OP you responded to said, then why have a delay at all? Coming back from injury involves two phases of physical recovery that are both critical to be remotely competitive: the injury has to be healed enough to allow for the execution of basic moves and then the injured guy has to be in reasonable shape. Not peak shape, but he can’t be coming off the Airdyne after a year off either. If we’re to have a delay, allowing for 2 months of mat time is verte reasonable. Eliminating the delay is also reasonable. 

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As the OP you responded to said, then why have a delay at all? Coming back from injury involves two phases of physical recovery that are both critical to be remotely competitive: the injury has to be healed enough to allow for the execution of basic moves and then the injured guy has to be in reasonable shape. Not peak shape, but he can’t be coming off the Airdyne after a year off either. If we’re to have a delay, allowing for 2 months of mat time is verte reasonable. Eliminating the delay is also reasonable. 
I'm on board with not allowing a delay, I've said that a couple of times. However, it's here. This is abuse of that system to such an extreme level I can't fathom it, and I've been a Dake guy for years. Plus, the reporting has basically been brutal for any defense of Dake. Dake can respond to Flo's reporting at any time, and he has chosen not to. What we've been told is that Dke had a doctor's note saying he couldn't compete until 8/17. Now he's, ya know, competing and he says that he can get a note saying he can compete now. If that's true, the wrestleoff should be moved up, but he won't because of the agreed upon date under the original doctor's note.

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What if Dake produces a doctor's note saying the wrestle off should be delayed until November.  Will they delay Worlds?

 

I think this situation needs to lead to a rule change where there is a set alternate date in case of injury.  If the injured wrestler isn't ready by then, he doesn't get on the team.  

 

An honor-based system clearly doesn't work.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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40 minutes ago, VakAttack said:

I'm on board with not allowing a delay, I've said that a couple of times. However, it's here. This is abuse of that system to such an extreme level I can't fathom it, and I've been a Dake guy for years. Plus, the reporting has basically been brutal for any defense of Dake. Dake can respond to Flo's reporting at any time, and he has chosen not to. What we've been told is that Dke had a doctor's note saying he couldn't compete until 8/17. Now he's, ya know, competing and he says that he can get a note saying he can compete now. If that's true, the wrestleoff should be moved up, but he won't because of the agreed upon date under the original doctor's note.
 

I  don't really care what Flo or the media says about the matter, and if you're objective, you probably shouldn't either, but that's beside the point.

So allowing a delay is OK, and using the doctor's note that allowed for the delay to set the date of the wrestle-off is OK. But as soon as another doctor's note is produced, then the delay should be rescheduled?? That makes even less sense and would be even worse for Ringer. Imagine all the games that could be played if that were true. The injured medalist could get a doctor's note last minute that says he's ready tomorrow, and all of a sudden the non-medalist has to find a way to readjust his training cycle again and make weight tomorrow....

There is no perfect system. I don't care much about who played games and who didn't, since the ONLY way to objectively guard against that kind of thing is through rules. I'm fine with avoiding the delay too, as I've noted (frankly, I might even prefer it). But if there IS to be a delay, it makes no sense to have the wrestle-off as soon as the medalist is medically cleared to set foot on a mat (explained why above) ... and it makes even less sense, once that date is established, to RE-rechedule it based on a later doctor's note. That would give even more room to screw Ringer over, and it further convolutes a convoluted process.

I think a lot of folks are letting their emotions interfere with what they think the rules should and shoulnd't allow for. I can totally understand why. Not a good look for Dake, I get it. But stop and think about what changing the process to what you suggest could do and it's an even bigger potential cluster.

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5 hours ago, Katie said:

I think you should re-read what I wrote.

You complained about the "JB era." In response, I let you know that era has actually been very successful.

Then, I said "maybe" there is something to protecting returning medalists. The word "maybe" should have told you I was not asserting anything with "mathematical credibility." I was merely saying that our system has worked well during the period you complain about -- and that system included protections for returning medalists.

Let me ask you this. Has the qualifying system failed anyone in recent years? If so, who?

 

perhaps protecting the medalist helped get the medalist back to worlds...and we won more medals b/c they were experienced...

good point katie.

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Vak - I get your concern and issue.  I also think that if Dake gets hurt that another delay will look bad.  

That said, Dake can get injured in the Cornell room, at the OTC, or in Spain. Him wrestling hard has to happen in order to prepare.  I know you don’t think the live practice goes are easy.  

The rage being displayed here is over the top and misplaced.  People are screaming about the doctors note(s) and they don’t know what the notes say.  Rage is based on second summaries.   Its all pretty crazy. 

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Well being August 17th, at least for now, should Ringer lose...at least there is time before worlds for Cowboy RTC coaches to lawyer up and challenge some close call . ...  or as Koll puts it "misappropriation of rules"

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2 minutes ago, tbert said:

Well being August 17th, at least for now, should Ringer lose...at least there is time before worlds for Cowboy RTC coaches to lawyer up and challenge some close call . ...  or as Koll puts it "misappropriation of rules"

 

Emoji Rolling Eyes

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On 7/4/2019 at 1:38 PM, Katie said:

What year did USAW unfairly disadvantage Dake in particular? As far as I know, USAW has never altered their procedures to hurt him.

As far as Dake potentially being better than JB during the 2013, 2015, or 2017 seasons, I do not think such a belief is based on the facts. Here are the facts:

2013

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals; 5th place at the Golden Grand Prix
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Sargsyan champ

2015

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Pan Am champ

2017

  • JB earned a bye to the WTT finals by winning the US Open. Dake had the same opportunity but lost to JB at the US Open. JB then beat Dake two out of three times at the WTT Finals. I don't see anything unfair here.

I think the format of the WTT was very unfair. Not only did it impose a physical disadvantage on the challenger, but also created an atmosphere where the incumbent was going to get all the 50/50 and even 40-60 calls, which is what happened. Despite the final outcome it was thisclose in 2015 and 2017.  

Also I thought Dake outwrestled JB at the US Open, but JB got the calls. 

Anyway, just hope Dake is not injured again and we get the match with Ringer. 

 

 

Edited by iha

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50 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Without some rule changes, I don't see why future medalists won't wrestle on their own time and destroy the entire process as a result.  One bad apple......

Yep.  Every wrestler in the country can come up with a doctor's note that says whatever they want.  This was a well intentioned rule that was poorly thought through and poorly written.  Just have a date that everyone wrestles in the future.  USA Wrestling flubbed this one.

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