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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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21 hours ago, boconnell said:

There is a major difference between it working against Dake in the past and for him now. When it worked against Dake ... it did so in a wrestler neutral rule as you stated.  Every returning medalist got the exact same advantage... But this time only one returning medalist is getting this advantage.  And instead of it being spelled out ahead of time ... the rules allowed for a delay... negotiation took over and each guy is left to argue to get his.  Dake is clearly better at that argument than Dieringer (or Dake's camp is better than Dieringers)... 

What should be blamed is USA Wrestling for writing such vague rules that could so easily be twisted by a guy willing to fight for his best chance.  The rule should have spelled out the time frame ahead of time, and it should have been a time frame that allowed both guys a chance to peak for Worlds...

Why do you think only one wrestler got to take advantage of it? It was there for Taylor but his injury was too severe and too close in time for it to matter. Everyone else was healthy enough to wrestle. Not needing the delay isn't the same as "not having the advantage". I don't think Dake argued better than Dieringer, he had the rules on his side: he's the defending champ, he had knee surgery, he invoked his right to delay the match to recover - to heal and to get back in match shape. Reasonable minds can differ but I don't think match shape for this B tournament in Spain is the same as match shape to wrestle Dieringer, much less in Kazakhstan.

20 hours ago, osufan12 said:

If Dake is not training with people who have his health at the top of mind then that is just poor planning on his part.

Even training with people who did, he had 300 pounds of beef land on his knee. 

19 hours ago, osufan12 said:

I think it is really unfair to Ringer if Dake aggravates his injury. The general consensus seems to be if Dake gets hurt again then Ringer just gets the spot so no big deal to Ringer. But why do we assume that? Why wouldn't Dake just get another delay? Nothing prevents it. There is still time. This thing is pushed back so far it seems crazy to me to chance delaying it even further. 

I don't know that nothing prevents it. The rules say that if a defending medalist can't wrestle at Final X they can postpone the wrestle-off but once a date is agreed upon I'm not aware of anything in the rules that allows them to push it back a second time. Once USA Wrestling plans the replacement date my suspicion is that it is final BECAUSE of the gamesmanship you're concerned with.

As for whether the date has already been pushed back "so far," there is a window for the replacement date and this is well within it. Most of the complaining seems to pivot on whether you consider wrestling in Spain "competition" or "training" when it's basically both. Why you would elevate that question to a character-defining moral question is beyond me. 

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8 minutes ago, ugarte said:

Why do you think only one wrestler got to take advantage of it? It was there for Taylor but his injury was too severe and too close in time for it to matter. Everyone else was healthy enough to wrestle. Not needing the delay isn't the same as "not having the advantage". I don't think Dake argued better than Dieringer, he had the rules on his side: he's the defending champ, he had knee surgery, he invoked his right to delay the match to recover - to heal and to get back in match shape. Reasonable minds can differ but I don't think match shape for this B tournament in Spain is the same as match shape to wrestle Dieringer, much less in Kazakhstan. 

I think only one guy used the rule because only one guy used the rule.

I think Dake argued better than Dieringer because they argued opposite points and Dake prevailed.

I think Dake didn't have the rules on his side because the rules inexplicably stopped at the fair granting of a delay.  The only rule for how long the delay would be is both guys would argue it out after it was granted.  Well that and a guy who was directly affected by the decision would get to vote (JB).  

This whole thing has been pathetically handled by USA Wrestling.  Dake and Dieringer have both been great. 

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I honestly do not see the issue with Dake wrestling a tune up. The whole idea is to have out best lineup and it is not like Ringer can't wrestle a tuneup if he chooses. I'm sorry but unless someone has evidence that Dake faked his injury all the carping is just silly. Dake had to wrestle the same day challenge tournament just to face JB three times and the situation was so skewed he decided to try for 186 where whe was outweighed by 20 pounds with the day before weigh in. In comparison Ringer has to deal with the "injustice" of having to wrestle a defending WC coming coming off injury  who might actually be 100% for their match.     

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9 hours ago, iha said:

I think the format of the WTT was very unfair. Not only did it impose a physical disadvantage on the challenger, but also created an atmosphere where the incumbent was going to get all the 50/50 and even 40-60 calls, which is what happened. Despite the final outcome it was thisclose in 2015 and 2017.  

Also I thought Dake outwrestled JB at the US Open, but JB got the calls. 

Anyway, just hope Dake is not injured again and we get the match with Ringer.

Between 2013 and 2016, there is zero evidence Dake was at JB's level. Dake was barely active during those years, and the only tournament he won was the 2014 Granma Cup. So everyone who thinks Dake was neck and neck with JB during those years is speculating based on something other than actual freestyle results.

In 2017, JB and Dake actually had an equal chance to make the world team because JB was not a returning medalist that year. And JB won the spot.

Sometimes you just have to accept reality.

 

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, CoachWrestling said:

It’s pathetic that people are trying to excuse the actions being taken by Dake’s camp. 

@CoachWrestling - could you expand on why you think so?  I have a few posts here with questions for folks that disagree with the position I’ve explained.  Your responses to those questions would really help explain your position.

Or at least be specific on the actions you are calling out by Dake’s camp .... no conjecture though.  Your post makes it likely you have some facts.  Most reasonable folks would not call people’s perspectives pathetic based on some guessing.

 

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1 hour ago, Katie said:

Between 2013 and 2016, there is zero evidence Dake was at JB's level. Dake was barely active during those years, and the only tournament he won was the 2014 Granma Cup. So everyone who thinks Dake was neck and neck with JB during those years is speculating based on something other than actual freestyle results.

In 2017, JB and Dake actually had an equal chance to make the world team because JB was not a returning medalist that year. And JB won the spot.

Sometimes you just have to accept reality.

 

Did take JB to OT in the second match in 2013 and beat Tsargush but not really arguing 2013. But from 2015 on it was very close. Reality was that in 2017 Dake got a raw deal imho. They hit him for passivity if he even thought of stepping back against JB, like they had an implant in his head reading his thoughts. 

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2 hours ago, iha said:

I honestly do not see the issue with Dake wrestling a tune up. The whole idea is to have out best lineup and it is not like Ringer can't wrestle a tuneup if he chooses. I'm sorry but unless someone has evidence that Dake faked his injury all the carping is just silly. Dake had to wrestle the same day challenge tournament just to face JB three times and the situation was so skewed he decided to try for 186 where whe was outweighed by 20 pounds with the day before weigh in. In comparison Ringer has to deal with the "injustice" of having to wrestle a defending WC coming coming off injury  who might actually be 100% for their match.     

Dake didn't fake his injury, he faked his needed recovery time.

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15 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Dake didn't fake his injury, he faked his needed recovery time.

TBar - what do you mean?  What exactly did he fake?  

Are you in the camp that Dake had to say the date when he was expecting to be healed and that day he had to wrestle Dieringer with no ability to get back into shape?

Please clearly explain your position.

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20 minutes ago, nom said:

TBar - what do you mean?  What exactly did he fake?  

Are you in the camp that Dake had to say the date when he was expecting to be healed and that day he had to wrestle Dieringer with no ability to get back into shape?

Please clearly explain your position.

Dake does not deserve a fair match! It is his fault he got hurt, and should have to wrestle Dieringer right when hes cleared to wrestle obviously.

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21 minutes ago, nom said:

TBar - what do you mean?  What exactly did he fake?  

Are you in the camp that Dake had to say the date when he was expecting to be healed and that day he had to wrestle Dieringer with no ability to get back into shape?

Please clearly explain your position.

Pretty sure I explained my thoughts on one of the other 12 pages. Basically, if he is healthy enough to wrestle next wknd., then he doesn't need until August 17. This is a bad look for him.

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6 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Pretty sure I explained my thoughts on one of the other 12 pages. Basically, if he is healthy enough to wrestle next wknd., then he doesn't need until August 17. This is a bad look for him.

So your in the camp that because he got injured, he should not have a chance to knock off rust and give himself a realistic shot. Taylor or Snyder are the only guys that coming off of an injury, without time to knock of rust, that you could confidently say would be fine, and that is only because of the separation at those weights. 

Edited by Molsen

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4 minutes ago, Molsen said:

So your in the camp that because he got injured, he should not have a chance to knock off rust and give himself a realistic shot.

I am in the camp that when the doctor says he is healthy enough to wrestle, he should wrestle. 

Everyone else had to go on a specific date, and a date not of their choosing. Dake shouldn't be able to make a calendar just for himself.

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12 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I am in the camp that when the doctor says he is healthy enough to wrestle, he should wrestle. 

Everyone else had to go on a specific date, and a date not of their choosing. Dake shouldn't be able to make a calendar just for himself.

If you allow for a delay, it only makes sense to let them knock off some rust, otherwise, dont bother having a delay.

Edited by Molsen

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Ok - so to be clear - TBar’s stance, the best I can tell, is that once the injured medalist is healed enough wrestle a match, any match - even in practice or exhibition, he needs to immediately wrestle Final X.  There is no allowable time to get back into good wrestling form post injury.  

Ok.  People can have this perspective.  

I believe that if delays are to be allowed, the delay should include time for the injured wrestler to get back into good form.  I believe this aligns with the goal of having our best wrestler represent us at the world championships.  

We can agree to disagree.

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Dake fan guidelines appear to be:

  1. If Dake loses in the old WTT Finals as a challenger, it's only because of an insurmountable physical disadvantage. (This rule applies even to losses by first period tech.)
  2. If Dake loses at the US Open, it's only because the refs messed up.
  3. If Dake is forced to wrestle at a delayed Final X following an injury, it's only fair for him to pick a date when he feels like wrestling and not the first date he is able to wrestle. (Also, his opponent should have no complaints.)

Is all this about right?

Edited by Katie

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2 hours ago, iha said:

Did take JB to OT in the second match in 2013 and beat Tsargush but not really arguing 2013. But from 2015 on it was very close. Reality was that in 2017 Dake got a raw deal imho. They hit him for passivity if he even thought of stepping back against JB, like they had an implant in his head reading his thoughts. 

They wrestled with both guys on equal rest and he lost.  Then they wrestled with uneven rest and he lost.  There was nothing raw about 2017 except for getting stuck behind an all-time great he wasn't as good as.

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1 hour ago, nom said:

Ok - so to be clear - TBar’s stance, the best I can tell, is that once the injured medalist is healed enough wrestle a match, any match - even in practice or exhibition, he needs to immediately wrestle Final X.  There is no allowable time to get back into good wrestling form post injury.  

Ok.  People can have this perspective.  

I believe that if delays are to be allowed, the delay should include time for the injured wrestler to get back into good form.  I believe this aligns with the goal of having our best wrestler represent us at the world championships.  

We can agree to disagree.

I believe delays should not go so far as to affect either wrestler from peaking for worlds.  I think this aligns with the goal of having our best wrestler at his best at the world championships.  If Dake is not at his best but can risk competing in early July they can wrestle off on August 1 and give each guy a better run up to worlds.

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@boconnell - seems very reasonable. I was surprised when I learned the wrestle off could be as late as right before the team heads out.  

Would be interesting to see the minutes of the USAW meeting where this was hashed out and the current rule voted on.

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@Katieto your point - I do wish folks would give the Dake/JB thing a rest.  Dake lost to JB under the rule set at the time, multiple times.  JB is awesome.  Beating Dake is an example of how awesome he is.  Done.  

Perfectly ok to feel Dake could win now.  Done. 

 

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1 hour ago, nom said:

Ok - so to be clear - TBar’s stance, the best I can tell, is that once the injured medalist is healed enough wrestle a match, any match - even in practice or exhibition, he needs to immediately wrestle Final X.  There is no allowable time to get back into good wrestling form post injury.  

Ok.  People can have this perspective.  

You keep lumping in the “even in practice” phrase when pretty sure most people would have no problem with him wrestling full matches in practice.  It’s just the fact that he’s entering an official competition which people think is wrong.

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2 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

You keep lumping in the “even in practice” phrase when pretty sure most people would have no problem with him wrestling full matches in practice.  It’s just the fact that he’s entering an official competition which people think is wrong.

Not true. People were griping about how Dake had been practicing (Gabe Dean tweeted about it at one point) while not cleared to compete by a doctor well before Dake registered for the Spanish tournament. It's a ridiculous gripe. Either you're going to give medalists a chance to come back from injury enough to come close to representing their abilities (otherwise, why protect at all??), or just don't allow extensions. Forcing guys to wrestle right off crutches after allowing them to postpone is idiotic. I favor getting rid of extensions and pushing back Final X until a month before Worlds, personally..

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