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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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2 hours ago, nom said:

Ok - so to be clear - TBar’s stance, the best I can tell, is that once the injured medalist is healed enough wrestle a match, any match - even in practice or exhibition, he needs to immediately wrestle Final X.  There is no allowable time to get back into good wrestling form post injury.  

Ok.  People can have this perspective.  

I believe that if delays are to be allowed, the delay should include time for the injured wrestler to get back into good form.  I believe this aligns with the goal of having our best wrestler represent us at the world championships.  

We can agree to disagree.

Here is what your simplistic explanation is missing. They could have Dake take a medical/physical exam to determine his fitness. There is a lot of room between wrestling the very second his injury allows and wrestling the last possible legally allowable date.

And yes, if he can wrestle The Spanish Grand Prix on July 13 he can probably wrestle Ringer on July 13, or at latest Aug. 1. Aug. 17 seems contrived to help Fake at the potential expense of Ringer.

Edited by TBar1977

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25 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Not true. People were griping about how Dake had been practicing (Gabe Dean tweeted about it at one point) while not cleared to compete by a doctor well before Dake registered for the Spanish tournament. It's a ridiculous gripe. Either you're going to give medalists a chance to come back from injury enough to come close to representing their abilities (otherwise, why protect at all??), or just don't allow extensions. Forcing guys to wrestle right off crutches after allowing them to postpone is idiotic. I favor getting rid of extensions and pushing back Final X until a month before Worlds, personally..

i knew he would be working out and working hard in the practice room, live, drill, repeat

i wasn't griping.

i thought it odd that he would go wrestle an official somewhere else before he was 'ready' 

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Dake claimed he was too injured to wrestle. Most wrestlers are not 100% at Final X. They didnt request delays. Under the current scenario, we should just let the returning medalist schedule the wrestle off at their leisure and when they feel totally ready. That's what people are asking for.

The argument that we're protecting them already, so why shouldn't Dake just be able to do whatever he wants rings false to me,@wrestlingnerd. Their benefit is they get the by and dont have to run the gauntlet of the tournament.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

Dake claimed he was too injured to wrestle. Most wrestlers are not 100% at Final X. They didnt request delays. Under the current scenario, we should just let the returning medalist schedule the wrestle off at their leisure and when they feel totally ready. That's what people are asking for.

The argument that we're protecting them already, so why shouldn't Dake just be able to do whatever he wants rings false to me,@wrestlingnerd. Their benefit is they get the by and dont have to run the gauntlet of the tournament.

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You're not understanding my argument, then.

First, to be clear, I proposed Final X a month before worlds (other thread) with no delays. If you're not good to go a month before worlds, unless you're Wolverine or JB with an ankle injury, you're not good to go for worlds.

That said, if the powers that be decide to give an injured medalist a break, then let's give them a real break. Understanding that there is going to be gamesmanship in this scenario and there is no perfect system, all I'm saying is an injured medalist should get to recover physically enough to again be a medal threat. Otherwise, what's the point. Part of that recovery process is recovery of the heart and not the injured joint, i.e. getting in shape. That is a reality of our sport: it is very hard on the cardio system. I don't know what's worse, having a bum leg or no gas--probably no gas. That's not "whatever he wants" to me. 

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If the date he could wrestle was August 17, so be it.  If he wanted to knock off some rust then bring in some practice partners .probably some there now better than entries in Grand Prix of Spain ...or there were the qualifiers he could of wrestled . He is just dickin  the system in typical whiny assed Dake fashion.

Just the beginning of the rodeo..hang on 

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You're not understanding my argument, then.
First, to be clear, I proposed Final X a month before worlds (other thread) with no delays. If you're not good to go a month before worlds, unless you're Wolverine or JB with an ankle injury, you're not good to go for worlds.
That said, if the powers that be decide to give an injured medalist a break, then let's give them a real break. Understanding that there is going to be gamesmanship in this scenario and there is no perfect system, all I'm saying is an injured medalist should get to recover physically enough to again be a medal threat. Otherwise, what's the point. Part of that recovery process is recovery of the heart and not the injured joint, i.e. getting in shape. That is a reality of our sport: it is very hard on the cardio system. I don't know what's worse, having a bum leg or no gas--probably no gas. That's not "whatever he wants" to me. 
I perfectly understand your position on both fronts. I agree on your first point about removing the delay option completely and moving Final X back. We just disagree on the purpose of the delay and what should be afforded to the returning medalists under a system where we're giving them any protection. I feel like the bye is enough.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

I perfectly understand your position on both fronts. I agree on your first point about removing the delay option completely and moving Final X back. We just disagree on the purpose of the delay and what should be afforded to the returning medalists under a system where we're giving them any protection. I feel like the bye is enough.
 

I too think the bye is enough, hence my preference for no delays and a later Final X.

As for the delay, if you have to have a "purpose" for it more specific than "I'm injured", you're leaving the door wide open for all types of f*ckery such as the type we're witnessing now. You can't have a delay and have ANY rule set that will avoid gamesmanship for a legitimately injured athlete looking to maximize his chances. Never going to happen.

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1 minute ago, VakAttack said:

I perfectly understand your position on both fronts. I agree on your first point about removing the delay option completely and moving Final X back. We just disagree on the purpose of the delay and what should be afforded to the returning medalists under a system where we're giving them any protection. I feel like the bye is enough.

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The purpose of the delay is to give an injured returning medalist a chance at making the team right? Your not actually giving them a chance if you dont let them knock of the rust. Thats the problem. Making them wrestle right away defeats the whole purpose of having a delay. But it seems most would be fine with them getting rid of the delay all together.

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I too think the bye is enough, hence my preference for no delays and a later Final X.
As for the delay, if you have to have a "purpose" for it more specific than "I'm injured", you're leaving the door wide open for all types of f*ckery such as the type we're witnessing now. You can't have a delay and have ANY rule set that will avoid gamesmanship for a legitimately injured athlete looking to maximize his chances. Never going to happen.
What about putting a limit on when the delay cn be until? It doesn't erase the ****ery, but it limits it.

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4 minutes ago, wrestlingnerd said:

A cynical view would be this was manufactured BS to sell tickets, haha. It worked on me. I am going for sure.

Hey, it's got people talking a lot, so I mean, even if it wasnt the goal, its likely working. I was obviously looking foward to the matchup before, but now I'm a lot more excited.

Edited by Molsen

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52 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Here is what your simplistic explanation is missing. They could have Dake take a medical/physical exam to determine his fitness. There is a lot of room between wrestling the very second his injury allows and wrestling the last possible legally allowable date.

And yes, if he can wrestle The Spanish Grand Prix on July 13 he can probably wrestle Ringer on July 13, or at latest Aug. 1. Aug. 17 seems contrived to help Fake at the potential expense of Ringer.

I follow some but not all of this.  I agree that there is a lot of wiggle room between becoming healthy and the latest allowable date. The latest date, from my understanding, is right before leaving for acclimation camp.  When is that?  Is that Aug 18 or even Aug 23rd?  I didn’t think it was.  

You put a lot of weight to the Spanish Grand Prix?  Why?  Why is this more weight than practice live matches at the OTC?  Do you believe Dake should be allowed to wrestle live matches before he faces Ringer?  

This is the part this is not clear.  

Do you believe Dake should be able to get the rust off after recovery from injury?

 

 

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1 hour ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Was not referring to you, GockeS. I don't even know who, just remember the posts on here about it. 

many are griping...but i didn't know anyone had been griping about him working out.

that seems a bit of a stretch.

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I'm wondering what the feeling would be if this was David Taylor getting a delay to face Patrick Downey. I think several people would be singing a different tune.
I don't care if it was Snyder vs Gadson. My stance would be the same.

Dont sit out for a year, then say you're not in wrestling shape and then go wrestle a tournament, pushing your qualifying match (you had known about months in advance) back as far as possible.

Wrestle the damn match, trix are for kids.

Rules will eliminate this in the future. But man is it dumb.


Hope the tournaments coming up squash this topic

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2 hours ago, nom said:

I follow some but not all of this.  I agree that there is a lot of wiggle room between becoming healthy and the latest allowable date. The latest date, from my understanding, is right before leaving for acclimation camp.  When is that?  Is that Aug 18 or even Aug 23rd?  I didn’t think it was.  

You put a lot of weight to the Spanish Grand Prix?  Why?  Why is this more weight than practice live matches at the OTC?  Do you believe Dake should be allowed to wrestle live matches before he faces Ringer?  

This is the part this is not clear.  

Do you believe Dake should be able to get the rust off after recovery from injury?

 

 

What are you not getting? It's not that hard to figure out. Sheesh.

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3 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Not true. People were griping about how Dake had been practicing (Gabe Dean tweeted about it at one point) while not cleared to compete by a doctor well before Dake registered for the Spanish tournament. It's a ridiculous gripe. Either you're going to give medalists a chance to come back from injury enough to come close to representing their abilities (otherwise, why protect at all??), or just don't allow extensions. Forcing guys to wrestle right off crutches after allowing them to postpone is idiotic. I favor getting rid of extensions and pushing back Final X until a month before Worlds, personally..

Sure, but that’s why I said “most” people.  Was there a 13-page thread about it?

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3 hours ago, Molsen said:

The purpose of the delay is to give an injured returning medalist a chance at making the team right? Your not actually giving them a chance if you dont let them knock of the rust. Thats the problem. Making them wrestle right away defeats the whole purpose of having a delay. 

No it doesn’t, he was supposedly injured before and now (once he wrestles in Spain) he’s not.  The point is to recover from injury, not “get the rust off.”

Edited by 1032004

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USA  Wrestling would be better served with out this BS drama and just send the #2 guy.   Anyone receiving special consideration because of this rule, then threatens to sue them when things do not go his way...simply is not worthy of their support.   

Just can this rule if wrestlers are going to take advantage and make a mockery of the selection process.  Not worth it.  

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15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

No it doesn’t, he was supposedly injured before and now (once he wrestles in Spain) he’s not.  The point is to recover from injury, not “get the rust off.”

Maybe they could bring into the room Cornell alumni great Billy George to knock the rust off.

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

No it doesn’t, he was supposedly injured before and now (once he wrestles in Spain) he’s not.  The point is to recover from injury, not “get the rust off.”

Isn't the purpose to give the returning medalist a chance at the team though? You aren't giving them a chance if they have to wrestle right when they are eligible to wrestle. So either dont have the delay, or you have to allow for them to knock off the rust/get into wrestling shape. Otherwise there is literally 0 point in having the delay in the first place.

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