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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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53 minutes ago, ugarte said:

just admit that you are making these objections up from your own gut and that they have no formal basis in any rule or previous interpretation of a rule

http://content.themat.com/forms/2019-WTT-MFS.pdf  and http://content.themat.com/forms/2019-WTT-Procedures.pdf

It says "delay due to injury or illness."  It doesn't say "delay due to needing to knock off the rust."

As mentioned previously, the committee apparently put in specific wording when the delay was announced saying that they didn't want him to compete prior to 8/17, but someone(s) also apparently changed their mind.

(I know #3 of what I posted has no "formal basis in any rule" since only 48 hours is required, but considering this was an old injury and if it's apparently common knowledge that he should be able to compete in something else first, I think that's part of why people are so annoyed by the situation).

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like i said, you're defining "injury or illness" in a way that leads only to your gut. Is the injury healed when you're not likely to get hurt again or when you've regained your form? Who knows! Not me. But the latter is as reasonable an interpretation as yours. Is there any rule that precludes live competition at your own risk as part of the recovery? Who knows! Not me. But if the "committee put in specific wording" let's see it. Let's have even one person with actual knowledge  go on the record and say it. This "apparently" is a ghost.

be annoyed, it's a free country. but people keep making it about character and it isn't. 

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On 7/5/2019 at 1:18 PM, wrestlingnerd said:

Absolutely not enough data to make any mental leap such as the one you just made. There are so many variables at play, I don't even know how you would even start to make that case with any mathematical credibility.

Major factors that influenced medal count:
1. Luck (JBs and Snyders only come along every once in a long while, and those two together are responsible for a hefty number of the medals you mentioned)
2. USA Wrestling system and coaching substantially improving. You can see how competitive it became throughout the years by looking at how insanely competitive even true freshmen are now in college. It used to be rare and "wow-inducing" to see a freshman NCAA champ. Now it is surprising if too many years go by without a few.
3. Advent of the RTC
4. Substantial expansion of the wrestling economy (sponsored athletes can now earn a good living with wrestling, thereby allowing for complete focus on the sport and career longevity/consistency).

Most importantly, I don't think the team would've changed much if at all under the "old" system anyway. The same reps likely would've been the same reps with possibly one or two exceptions in that entire era.

 Great summary, I’d also throw in better rules as a factor.  Our guys always sucked at the clinches and in my opinion tended not to be very strong on the strategic aspects best of three period system.  

I also feel like the two point take down and push out tends to favor Americans. One famous example might be when Terry brands lost to Dabir.  Brands wins that match with today’s scoring in place.

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On 7/2/2019 at 4:00 PM, TBar1977 said:

Dake should be favored to win that match, but he shouldn't have the right to totally manipulate the time of the match. What's to stop him from bringing lawyers and dr.'s notes to USA Wrestling and getting the date moved yet again? 

Word is Dake already has a doctor's note to delay the 2nd period of the first match 24 hours just in case the 1st period score is not in his favor. ;) ;_;

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7 hours ago, ugarte said:

like i said, you're defining "injury or illness" in a way that leads only to your gut. Is the injury healed when you're not likely to get hurt again or when you've regained your form? Who knows! Not me. But the latter is as reasonable an interpretation as yours. Is there any rule that precludes live competition at your own risk as part of the recovery? Who knows! Not me. But if the "committee put in specific wording" let's see it. Let's have even one person with actual knowledge  go on the record and say it. This "apparently" is a ghost.

Pyles said it.  He knows more about the situation than anyone on this site.

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21 hours ago, nom said:

Your argument was that USA wrestling didn’t want Dake to do it.  Right?  

My question is why?  I don’t get it.

I guess a good counter is that when a vote was taken 4 said Ok.  Which is more than the 3 that said no.  I win?

No.  I’m trying to get to the why on why some people say no.

This vote was held after he threatened USA wrestling with a lawyer. Of course that influenced the No votes. 

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10 hours ago, ugarte said:

like i said, you're defining "injury or illness" in a way that leads only to your gut. Is the injury healed when you're not likely to get hurt again or when you've regained your form? Who knows! Not me. But the latter is as reasonable an interpretation as yours. Is there any rule that precludes live competition at your own risk as part of the recovery? Who knows! Not me. But if the "committee put in specific wording" let's see it. Let's have even one person with actual knowledge  go on the record and say it. This "apparently" is a ghost.

be annoyed, it's a free country. but people keep making it about character and it isn't. 

Kyle is a victim of his own past behaviors and has not changed over the years.  This is what many use, including me, to determine his character.    

Can he at least wrestle one meaningless Grand Prix of Spain match without whining to the ref?

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To me it has nothing to do with character of Dake. I like him and if he beats Ringer I will root like hell for him.

I just think it is insane to put off wrestling Ringer for another 6 weeks after participating in an international tournament. 

Great move for Dake, not great for USA wrestling if Dake doesn't win.  

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2 hours ago, Housebuye said:

This vote was held after he threatened USA wrestling with a lawyer. Of course that influenced the No votes. 

Did they threaten with a lawyer?  I am curious on how this played out. 

If it was more like — hey, just a reminder, the law says we can do this and we intend to do it - think twice about breaking the law, I have no beef with that and none of us should.  We all should know our legal rights and be willing to stand up for them.  Who would disagree?

If they called with a lawyer on the phone or sent a letter on legal letterhead to USA wrestling, yea, I can see some folks feeling peeved.

Was it one of these or something else?  

 

 

 

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This is a mess.  Pick a date where the winners have sufficient time to peak post-tourney.  On that day whoever is best is our guy.  No byes, no excuses.  

If you want to weed out anomalies only invite the top 2-4 guys and make it 2 of 3.  

IMO - No one should get an advantage on past performances. 

I still want it to be at Rutgers.  Why Austin?   We paid to see it; why fly these guys all the way to Texas when Dake is a short drive away.  I'll put them up at my house at the Jersey shore for the weekend.  

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38 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

To me it has nothing to do with character of Dake. I like him and if he beats Ringer I will root like hell for him.

I just think it is insane to put off wrestling Ringer for another 6 weeks after participating in an international tournament. 

Great move for Dake, not great for USA wrestling if Dake doesn't win.  

Ok.  So you are not against the competition in Spain — it’s more that the 6 week gap is too long.  If can do Spain, should be ready earlier than mid August.  Perhaps Aug 1.  Fair?

Ok.  I can see that.  I’m no expert on recovery and rust shaking.  I can see those more knowledgeable feeling that gap is too big.

Question though — I’m thinking that with Dogu in Mid-July, perhaps Aug 1 would be a bit quick for Ringer.  

I say this since many seem to be peeved that Aug 17 is too late.  Assuming this is because it is too close to worlds which is just over 1 month later.  

If wrestle off was Aug 1, this is 2-3 weeks after Dogu.  An even shorter time to recover and peak against the reigning world champion.

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, nom said:

Ok.  So you are not against the competition in Spain — it’s more that the 6 week gap is too long.  If can do Spain, should be ready earlier than mid August.  Perhaps Aug 1.  Fair?

Ok.  I can see that.  I’m no expert on recovery and rust shaking.  I can see those more knowledgeable feeling that gap is too big.

Question though — I’m thinking that with Dogu in Mid-July, perhaps Aug 1 would be a bit quick for Ringer.  

I say this since many seem to be peeved that Aug 17 is too late.  Assuming this is because it is too close to worlds which is just over 1 month later.  

If wrestle off was Aug 1, this is 2-3 weeks after Dogu.  An even shorter time to recover and peak against the reigning world champion.

 

 

 

 

No I am against him wrestling in Spain this weekend. I think it is incredibly insane Dake wrestled in an international competition before he wrestled Ringer. My point, was even if you are okay with Dake wrestling this past weekend it is crazy to make Ringer wait another 6 weeks. 

I have no inside info but I would bet money Ringer would trade competing in Dogu for an earlier wrestle off with Dake. 

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6 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Pyles said it.  He knows more about the situation than anyone on this site.

Flo was saying that spencer lee wasnt hurt or sick during the year, not really sure you should blindly follow them, you really shouldnt blindly follow the media anyway.

Edited by Molsen

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3 hours ago, tbert said:

Kyle is a victim of his own past behaviors and has not changed over the years.  This is what many use, including me, to determine his character.    

Can he at least wrestle one meaningless Grand Prix of Spain match without whining to the ref?

I have a feeling that some people would completely change their view if it was taylor and downey, instead of Dake and Dieringer. I truly believe do to Dakes past behavior, some people are making this a bigger deal then it is.

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8 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Pyles said it.  He knows more about the situation than anyone on this site.

i don't think pyles is hostile and for sure he knows more than me but i said someone on the record. i assume pyles' knowledge is second-hand as a journalist.

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52 minutes ago, ugarte said:

i don't think pyles is hostile and for sure he knows more than me but i said someone on the record. i assume pyles' knowledge is second-hand as a journalist.

I mean unless you're getting info from Dieringer, Dake, his doctor or lawyer then that's probably the best you're gonna get.

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I love how people are bashing on Dake.  How insecure are you behind your keyboard while mommy makes you toast.

Dake has done more than any of you guys while he was still in high school [and even Jr. High]... let alone 4 NCAA titles at 4 weights [with no redshirt], and oh... moved up to beat a DT Hodge winner and future world champion several times at that.

And for $&it's and giggles, he won Worlds last year without giving up a point.  

But you guys know better than he does.  Got it. Real tough guys.

Why not just look in the mirror tomorrow morning with crud in your eyes, and say to yourself:

"I will never accomplish anything near what he has... maybe I should just shut up while I am ahead..."

Trust me... Noone will deeply miss your critiques. 

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2 hours ago, leshismore said:

I love how people are bashing on Dake.  How insecure are you behind your keyboard while mommy makes you toast.

Dake has done more than any of you guys while he was still in high school [and even Jr. High]... let alone 4 NCAA titles at 4 weights [with no redshirt], and oh... moved up to beat a DT Hodge winner and future world champion several times at that.

And for $&it's and giggles, he won Worlds last year without giving up a point.  

But you guys know better than he does.  Got it. Real tough guys.

Why not just look in the mirror tomorrow morning with crud in your eyes, and say to yourself:

"I will never accomplish anything near what he has... maybe I should just shut up while I am ahead..."

Trust me... Noone will deeply miss your critiques. 

Thanks for the free evaluation.  I guess  I might think the same way about him 1st thing in the morning, while looking in the mirror if I was dreaming about him all night. 

I guess you are willing to overlook his lack of respect toward opponents, officials and wrestling , because of his accomplishments.

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On 7/6/2019 at 11:39 AM, boconnell said:

I think only one guy used the rule because only one guy used the rule.

I think Dake argued better than Dieringer because they argued opposite points and Dake prevailed.

I think Dake didn't have the rules on his side because the rules inexplicably stopped at the fair granting of a delay.  The only rule for how long the delay would be is both guys would argue it out after it was granted.  Well that and a guy who was directly affected by the decision would get to vote (JB).  

This whole thing has been pathetically handled by USA Wrestling.  Dake and Dieringer have both been great. 

I agree that USA Wrestling set the table for everything that has happened, and after the Randy Lewis-LeeRoy Smith-Rick Dellagatta debacle, I'm surprised they remained so unprepared.

As hard as it is to foresee every potential edge case, and as much as they're trying to do right by the wrestlers, firm deadlines seem the obvious way forward.

 

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23 minutes ago, CoachWrestling said:

I care more about his thoughts then you, or anyone else in this board. 

Considering he has a vested interest in the outcome, his thoughts really aren't relevant, and he certainly shouldn't have been voting on the matter.  Not that he shouldn't take every advantage of every opportunity to advance his own interests, but USA Wrestling should have asked him to recuse himself, or simply abstain from voting.

Edited by whaletail
phrasing

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20 hours ago, ugarte said:

be annoyed, it's a free country. but people keep making it about character and it isn't. 

 

Dake told Bader that getting the late August date was what was best for HIM. Character or Pure Self Interest at Ringer's expense? 

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1 hour ago, tbert said:

Thanks for the free evaluation.  I guess  I might think the same way about him 1st thing in the morning, while looking in the mirror if I was dreaming about him all night. 

I guess you are willing to overlook his lack of respect toward opponents, officials and wrestling , because of his accomplishments.

I’m glad you like my psychoanalysis. Sorry that Dake is so deep in your head. Your moral-high-ground is a tad too tall for me  

Bottom line is this. Has Dake always been the best in every situation?  NO!  No one has. We all know many who are much worse  

But for keyboard warriors to waste their time and energy complaining about Dake is quite sad. But knock yourself out if it makes you less insecure. 

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