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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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1 hour ago, red blades said:

The big difference being, some Dake fans may have voiced disagreement with the rules in past trials but I don't recall anyone slamming Borroughs for benefiting from them.

Likewise, I have no issue with anyone voicing displeasure with the current rules, but IMO, some of the criticism of Dake is way over the line. 

You must not have been paying attention. JB got his share of criticism from fans and Dake himself for being the beneficiary of the rules in the runup to 2016 and particularly after Rio. The revisions to the current process are the result of that.

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5 minutes ago, Molsen said:

Then I'm guessing you are upset with Taylor's Gamesmanship also? His was worse imo.

I never said I was upset with Dake's.  But Taylor's was definitely worse (not that I'm mad at his either).  

I expect guys to have some gamesmanship.  I looked for any edge as a coach. 

I just think a spade should be called a spade, and too many Dake fans are acting like he is simply doing what is medically necessary with no other motivation.

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9 minutes ago, boconnell said:

I never said I was upset with Dake's.  But Taylor's was definitely worse (not that I'm mad at his either).  

I expect guys to have some gamesmanship.  I looked for any edge as a coach. 

I just think a spade should be called a spade, and too many Dake fans are acting like he is simply doing what is medically necessary with no other motivation.

After watching his matches in spain, I think he is doing whats necessary, the Dake that showed up there didnt look ready to compete for the spot. Was there other motivation? Possibly, but his number one goal is making sure he is ready, not sabotaging Dieringer. Dakes goal is to win gold, not make the team.

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17 minutes ago, pamela said:

You must not have been paying attention. JB got his share of criticism from fans and Dake himself for being the beneficiary of the rules in the runup to 2016 and particularly after Rio. The revisions to the current process are the result of that.

Agree. Burroughs did take, and on this thread has taken, criticism for benefiting from the rules that disadvantaged Dake.

But unless I'm mistaken today's is a very different situation. It's the same because the rules favor the reigning medalist. But with Burroughs, as I understand it, he got the same benefit that Snyder or any other returning champ got -- a bye to the finals on a date certain.

Dake is getting more of a benefit than any other returning medalist is using this year -- a lengthy postponement.

Also Dake has twice seemed to not just use the benefit that the rule allows a postponement for medical reasons, but to have manipulated or milked the situation to extra advantage for him or disadvantage to his opponent. 

First, to his opponent's disadvantage by a relatively late notice which he obviously knew about before. 

Second, by getting a very long date that arguably is past when he will be wrestling-ready (as evidenced by his Spain entry); and, which if Dieringer ends up being the world rep, may end up being an interference with his ideal training. 

I think most understand that he's following the rules, and that self interest is not a terrible thing.  But I also think that many of us, including Dake fans like me, don't feel required to wear blinders that keep us from seeing these fairly basic facts, and don't feel unpatriotic for discussing them on ... a wrestling board.

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5 hours ago, boconnell said:

Here's a question...

If it takes outside the room competition to get reasonably ready (a common assertion in this thread), then why did Dake wait until the deadline to file for the extension.  He knew he needed months of prep and overseas matches so he knew months out he wasn't taking part in Final X.  Why the wait to file for extension?  The only reason is to make Dieringer get his weight down and peak for no reason.  

Dake is well within his rights here and USA Wrestling created this animal, but Dake has turned the gamesmanship up to 11.

I doubt anyone would argue that it wasn't gamesmanship, and although I wish Dake would simply acknowledge that, I can understand his reticence.

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49 minutes ago, pamela said:

You must not have been paying attention. JB got his share of criticism from fans and Dake himself for being the beneficiary of the rules in the runup to 2016 and particularly after Rio. The revisions to the current process are the result of that.

When did Dake ever criticize JB for being the beneficiary of an advantageous rule?

I remember him being critical of the rule, and wouldn't be surprised if he was critical of Zeke (I certainly would have been), but JB?

I'll need a linked quote before accepting that claim at face value.

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3 minutes ago, whaletail said:

When did Dake ever criticize JB for being the beneficiary of an advantageous rule?

I remember him being critical of the rule, and wouldn't be surprised if he was critical of Zeke (I certainly would have been), but JB?

I'll need a linked quote before accepting that claim at face value.

He didn't have to explicitly name JB to lob a critique, esp when his fans (full disclosure, I'm also a fan of Dake's wrestling) were already doing so.

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49 minutes ago, whaletail said:

I doubt anyone would argue that it wasn't gamesmanship, and although I wish Dake would simply acknowledge that, I can understand his reticence.

Pretty much knew when the strange Dake/Flow interview was posted, that the rodeo was just beginning.

Edited by tbert
Spellcheck

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5 hours ago, Lurker said:

Regardless of who he would bring in, wrestling in competition is different than wrestling live goes in the room.  You can't be out of competition for a year, recover from an injury, and expect to be in top form your first true competitive match.  Regardless of who you've had training with you.

So those guys at Spanish Grand Prix are the difference makers. That must be what Dake is/was thinking.

Edited by TBar1977

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Is Aug 17 that bad?  More than a month out from Worlds?

Is this date worse for Dieringer than it is for Dake?  Dake’s Goal is to win worlds.  If this date is so bad, why would he pick it if he felt he could be ready earlier?  Curious about the incentives.

 

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Lurker said:

Yes tbar. The guys in Spain are the difference. You got it. We’ll just go with that. 

Funny how for years now the anti PSU crowd here mocked David Taylor's Spanish Grand Prix results, and now all of a sudden this event has nothing but difference makers for Kyle Dake. I guess its all about whatever the narrative is you are trying to portray. 

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4 minutes ago, nom said:

Is Aug 17 that bad?  More than a month out from Worlds?

Is this date worse for Dieringer than it is for Dake?  Dake’s Goal is to win worlds.  If this date is so bad, why would he pick it if he felt he could be ready earlier?  Curious about the incentives.

 

 

 

 

Seriously?  Why would an injured guy who wants to win balance making the team vs being ready?

Can you seriously not see why August 17th would help Dake but not Dieringer?  I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here.

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10 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Funny how for years now the anti PSU crowd here mocked David Taylor's Spanish Grand Prix results, and now all of a sudden this event has nothing but difference makers for Kyle Dake. I guess its all about whatever the narrative is you are trying to portray. 

Yes...they are the difference makers. You got it. 

And I must admit I thought you’d come in with the DT Spain “relevance” much sooner. 

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40 minutes ago, boconnell said:

Seriously?  Why would an injured guy who wants to win balance making the team vs being ready?

Can you seriously not see why August 17th would help Dake but not Dieringer?  I feel like you're being deliberately obtuse here.

Ok, so now you are saying that Dake is honestly trying to make sure he is ready to make the team.

I agree.  I believe this was the intention of the rule.  Let the returning world medalist get back to form.  All good.

 About the 17th - I’m thick.  Please explain why this date gives Dake a competitive advantage in his matches vs Dieringer.  I need it spelled out.  I don’t think you are saying this ... but just in case.

 

 

Edited by nom

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Yes...they are the difference makers. You got it. 

And I must admit I thought you’d come in with the DT Spain “relevance” much sooner. 

Well, its a natural; fit, you see.

When DT wins The Spanish Grand Prix he's won almost nothing of value. When Dake wins the same event, well, now we're talking! This is a big ******* deal! Lol. 

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

I guess I’m not following where anyone is taking him winning this tournament as a big ******* deal. I must have missed this post. 

Didn't you see?  It was T-bar.

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12 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I guess I’m not following where anyone is taking him winning this tournament as a big ******* deal. I must have missed these posts. 

I took your acceptance of the competitors as "difference makers" as being a big deal. They are getting Dake into ship shape. I am just trying to keep up with the ever evolving nature of competition at The Spanish Grand Prix.

Edited by TBar1977

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2 hours ago, nom said:

Is Aug 17 that bad?  More than a month out from Worlds?

Is this date worse for Dieringer than it is for Dake?  Dake’s Goal is to win worlds.  If this date is so bad, why would he pick it if he felt he could be ready earlier?  Curious about the incentives.

 

 

 

 

i really dont care anymore... but if dake is peaking now... toward aug 17, and then another month.. thats pretty normal

ringers routine on the other hand... started a few months ago... i think most would agree prepping at a hi level for so long puts him at a disadvantage aug 17 and at worlds...

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I suppose Ringer could have skipped Dogu if he felt that peaking for so long is a bad thing.  

I need to bail out of this too ....

I’ll summarize my stance:

USAWrestling has a rule in place that says returning world medalists may delay their final X bout until right before leaving for acclimation camp.  The spirit of this rule is to help ensure we have the best wrestler representing the USA.  

It is obvious, on its face, that the intention is to allow the injured returning medalist to get back to wrestling form so that they stand a chance of winning at Final X. If you disagree with this, I’d rather not continue the discussion with you.

Dake was injured.  He has been recovering and trying to get back to form.  A date was selected for the wrestle off that is BEFORE the final deadline.  But it is LATER than his opponent would like. 

As part of getting back to form, which again, is inherently part of permitting a delay for the returning medalist, Dake’s camp felt that going to a competition would help.   Some feel that this is not fair.  I do not get this idea of being unfair.  Why should USA wrestling or anyone else dictate how the returning medalist gets back to form?  The answer is .. there is no answer.  They should not.

During the process, Dieringer is going to a competition as well.  Some feel that the timeline of events is harming Dieringer and that he will somehow be in less than peak form on the date of August 17 and / or be in sub peak form at Worlds.  Seems to be conjecture.  I do not get why. If a big concern, he could skip Dogu and have given himself some downtime and avoided the drag of travel.  Apparently he doesn’t feel he needs the downtime.  

All in all the outrage is .... in my humble opinion, is ridiculous.

 I do believe some are upset over the date being later than preferred.  I get it.  To a degree.

But ... let’s see the timeline as it stands for Ringer

Right now it is:

Final X Rutgers June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Dogu - July 10th ish

Wrestle off - Aug 17

Worlds - Sept 20

he could skip Dogu  but he  Isn’t.  Could have had 2+ month ‘break. Choose not to do that.  Dogu must have value to him.  Feels he can peak often enough I guess.

 

Some would prefer this schedule

Final X  - June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Wrestle off Aug 1

Worlds - Sept 20

Still needing to peak over a multi month time frame.  Gets 16 extra days before worlds.  But misses the experience of  Dogu.  But also gets a longer break.  A trade off. 

So, I can see some preferring the later timeline, but the outrage and slandering are unreal. I bet Dieringer values going to Dogu.

 

But some are haters or are trolling (TBar is prime example - or at least he is a hypocrite - I’m waiting for him to tear down DT based on his ‘gaming’ of the system).

 

Peace to all!!!

And I hope Dake and Dieringer are both healthy, feeling great, and wrestle well.  Whoever wins, I’ll be rooting hard for gold.

 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, nom said:

I suppose Ringer could have skipped Dogu if he felt that peaking for so long is a bad thing.  

I need to bail out of this too ....

I’ll summarize my stance:

USAWrestling has a rule in place that says returning world medalists may delay their final X bout until right before leaving for acclimation camp.  The spirit of this rule is to help ensure we have the best wrestler representing the USA.  

It is obvious, on its face, that the intention is to allow the injured returning medalist to get back to wrestling form so that they stand a chance of winning at Final X. If you disagree with this, I’d rather not continue the discussion with you.

Dake was injured.  He has been recovering and trying to get back to form.  A date was selected for the wrestle off that is BEFORE the final deadline.  But it is LATER than his opponent would like. 

As part of getting back to form, which again, is inherently part of permitting a delay for the returning medalist, Dake’s camp felt that going to a competition would help.   Some feel that this is not fair.  I do not get this idea of being unfair.  Why should USA wrestling or anyone else dictate how the returning medalist gets back to form?  The answer is .. there is no answer.  They should not.

During the process, Dieringer is going to a competition as well.  Some feel that the timeline of events is harming Dieringer and that he will somehow be in less than peak form on the date of August 17 and / or be in sub peak form at Worlds.  Seems to be conjecture.  I do not get why. If a big concern, he could skip Dogu and have given himself some downtime and avoided the drag of travel.  Apparently he doesn’t feel he needs the downtime.  

All in all the outrage is .... in my humble opinion, is ridiculous.

 I do believe some are upset over the date being later than preferred.  I get it.  To a degree.

But ... let’s see the timeline as it stands for Ringer

Right now it is:

Final X Rutgers June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Dogu - July 10th ish

Wrestle off - Aug 17

Worlds - Sept 20

he could skip Dogu  but he  Isn’t.  Could have had 2+ month ‘break. Choose not to do that.  Dogu must have value to him.  Feels he can peak often enough I guess.

 

Some would prefer this schedule

Final X  - June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Wrestle off Aug 1

Worlds - Sept 20

Still needing to peak over a multi month time frame.  Gets 16 extra days before worlds.  But misses the experience of  Dogu.  But also gets a longer break.  A trade off. 

So, I can see some preferring the later timeline, but the outrage and slandering are unreal. I bet Dieringer values going to Dogu.

 

But some are haters or are trolling (TBar is prime example - or at least he is a hypocrite - I’m waiting for him to tear down DT based on his ‘gaming’ of the system)

Peace to all!!!

And I hope Dake and Dieringer are both healthy, feeling great, and wrestle well.  Whoever wins, I’ll be rooting hard for 

You forgot to mention you are a Dake nuthugger.

Why didnt he enter the Dogu instead of Spain?   Certainly he could of sued USAW using the Stevens Act.  Pretty sure everyone knows that answer.

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23 minutes ago, nom said:

I suppose Ringer could have skipped Dogu if he felt that peaking for so long is a bad thing.  

I need to bail out of this too ....

I’ll summarize my stance:

USAWrestling has a rule in place that says returning world medalists may delay their final X bout until right before leaving for acclimation camp.  The spirit of this rule is to help ensure we have the best wrestler representing the USA.  

It is obvious, on its face, that the intention is to allow the injured returning medalist to get back to wrestling form so that they stand a chance of winning at Final X. If you disagree with this, I’d rather not continue the discussion with you.

Dake was injured.  He has been recovering and trying to get back to form.  A date was selected for the wrestle off that is BEFORE the final deadline.  But it is LATER than his opponent would like. 

As part of getting back to form, which again, is inherently part of permitting a delay for the returning medalist, Dake’s camp felt that going to a competition would help.   Some feel that this is not fair.  I do not get this idea of being unfair.  Why should USA wrestling or anyone else dictate how the returning medalist gets back to form?  The answer is .. there is no answer.  They should not.

During the process, Dieringer is going to a competition as well.  Some feel that the timeline of events is harming Dieringer and that he will somehow be in less than peak form on the date of August 17 and / or be in sub peak form at Worlds.  Seems to be conjecture.  I do not get why. If a big concern, he could skip Dogu and have given himself some downtime and avoided the drag of travel.  Apparently he doesn’t feel he needs the downtime.  

All in all the outrage is .... in my humble opinion, is ridiculous.

 I do believe some are upset over the date being later than preferred.  I get it.  To a degree.

But ... let’s see the timeline as it stands for Ringer

Right now it is:

Final X Rutgers June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Dogu - July 10th ish

Wrestle off - Aug 17

Worlds - Sept 20

he could skip Dogu  but he  Isn’t.  Could have had 2+ month ‘break. Choose not to do that.  Dogu must have value to him.  Feels he can peak often enough I guess.

 

Some would prefer this schedule

Final X  - June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Wrestle off Aug 1

Worlds - Sept 20

Still needing to peak over a multi month time frame.  Gets 16 extra days before worlds.  But misses the experience of  Dogu.  But also gets a longer break.  A trade off. 

So, I can see some preferring the later timeline, but the outrage and slandering are unreal. I bet Dieringer values going to Dogu.

 

But some are haters or are trolling (TBar is prime example - or at least he is a hypocrite - I’m waiting for him to tear down DT based on his ‘gaming’ of the system).

 

Peace to all!!!

And I hope Dake and Dieringer are both healthy, feeling great, and wrestle well.  Whoever wins, I’ll be rooting hard for gold.

 

 

 

 

Wait. You think DT gamed the system, but Dake did everything A Ok? Geez. 

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2 hours ago, nom said:

I suppose Ringer could have skipped Dogu if he felt that peaking for so long is a bad thing.  

I need to bail out of this too ....

I’ll summarize my stance:

USAWrestling has a rule in place that says returning world medalists may delay their final X bout until right before leaving for acclimation camp.  The spirit of this rule is to help ensure we have the best wrestler representing the USA.  

It is obvious, on its face, that the intention is to allow the injured returning medalist to get back to wrestling form so that they stand a chance of winning at Final X. If you disagree with this, I’d rather not continue the discussion with you.

Dake was injured.  He has been recovering and trying to get back to form.  A date was selected for the wrestle off that is BEFORE the final deadline.  But it is LATER than his opponent would like. 

As part of getting back to form, which again, is inherently part of permitting a delay for the returning medalist, Dake’s camp felt that going to a competition would help.   Some feel that this is not fair.  I do not get this idea of being unfair.  Why should USA wrestling or anyone else dictate how the returning medalist gets back to form?  The answer is .. there is no answer.  They should not.

During the process, Dieringer is going to a competition as well.  Some feel that the timeline of events is harming Dieringer and that he will somehow be in less than peak form on the date of August 17 and / or be in sub peak form at Worlds.  Seems to be conjecture.  I do not get why. If a big concern, he could skip Dogu and have given himself some downtime and avoided the drag of travel.  Apparently he doesn’t feel he needs the downtime.  

All in all the outrage is .... in my humble opinion, is ridiculous.

 I do believe some are upset over the date being later than preferred.  I get it.  To a degree.

But ... let’s see the timeline as it stands for Ringer

Right now it is:

Final X Rutgers June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Dogu - July 10th ish

Wrestle off - Aug 17

Worlds - Sept 20

he could skip Dogu  but he  Isn’t.  Could have had 2+ month ‘break. Choose not to do that.  Dogu must have value to him.  Feels he can peak often enough I guess.

 

Some would prefer this schedule

Final X  - June 8 (didn’t wrestle)

Wrestle off Aug 1

Worlds - Sept 20

Still needing to peak over a multi month time frame.  Gets 16 extra days before worlds.  But misses the experience of  Dogu.  But also gets a longer break.  A trade off. 

So, I can see some preferring the later timeline, but the outrage and slandering are unreal. I bet Dieringer values going to Dogu.

 

But some are haters or are trolling (TBar is prime example - or at least he is a hypocrite - I’m waiting for him to tear down DT based on his ‘gaming’ of the system).

 

Peace to all!!!

And I hope Dake and Dieringer are both healthy, feeling great, and wrestle well.  Whoever wins, I’ll be rooting hard for gold.

 

 

 

 

Notice every American with a choice isn't wrestling past July 10 so they have time to peak for worlds.  

Dieringer is being forced to wrestle 6 weeks after everyone else.  This is a timeline that USA Wrestling clearly sees as less than ideal.  There is no way Dake would choose to compete on August 17 if he was healthy all year.  It is clearly not ideal in a perfect world situation.  There is no way you don't get that. 

So Dake got to delay because that was the rule.  But that was also the end of the rules.  There is no rule for how long he gets to delay, only an open argument to commence after the extension is filed (an extension filed at the last minute when there was no reason for it to be last minute).  That open argument commenced and Dake got a vote to go his way pushing all the way to August 17.  Let me add here the worst part of this whole fiasco USAW served up.  Burroughs got to vote against Dake even though Dake's status this year directly affects JB's next year.  That is a ridiculous conflict of interest.  But even with JB voting against him Dake carries the day and a wrestle off date is chosen that puts both guys on a timeline that the other 9 wrestlers all choose to avoid. 

Then a month later Dake shows up able to compete but still somehow 6 weeks away from being able to wrestle Dieringer.  It's almost like after achieving basic health, Dake needs a 6 week run up to peak for the trials.  You have argued the validity of this a dozen times.  But somehow you can't see why anyone would think Dieringer needs 6 weeks to peak for worlds.  You are either incredibly dense or you just refuse to see things in any light other than the one you decided when you put your red glasses on in the morning.  

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Arghh - some quick replies

Tbar - your reading comprehension needs improvement.  Reread.  I’m waiting for you to claim that DT games the system.  You are a hypocrite if you feel he did not and Dake did.  

Tbert - you have no logical reply to my points.  Just histrionics and whiny stamping of feet.

Boconnell - I did acknowledge that that I do get why people don’t like the later wrestle off date.  I am also saying Aug 1 wouldn’t be much better.  The anger over a couple weeks, given that Ringet could have skipped Dogu to avoid the need to peak so consistently .. be he didn’t.  It must not be that bad for him.  Earlier wrestle off, no Dogu.  A trade off.  Note, the gap of Dogu to wrestle off is about the same as wrestle off to worlds.  

Dake’s late notice on the delay - yes, he could have announced sooner.  I think he should have for sportsmanship purposes.   I haven’t addressed this at all. I am debating this thread’s topic - his attendance at competition event in Spain.  On the late announced delay - I do recognize that delayed announcements have value to the announcer as option value exists.  But I think that value is small in this situation.  

I get why people are mad at the late announcement.  On the setting of the date for the wrestle off at a time when Dake can get back to form ...  I get why it isn’t ideal for Dieringer but it also isn’t horrible (he wouldn’t wrestle at Dogu if the peaking thing is so bad), and it is in line with USA wrestling goals and spirit of allowing a delay.  Let the returning medalist get back to form.  Get the best guys to worlds. 

You seem to be more annoyed with USA wrestling rules in this whole thing.  I get that.  I made another thread on how those rules should be changed.  I would support change.

 

 

 

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