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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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9 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

I took your acceptance of the competitors as "difference makers" as being a big deal. They are getting Dake into ship shape. I am just trying to keep up with the ever evolving nature of competition at The Spanish Grand Prix.

Try harder 

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8 hours ago, boconnell said:

Notice every American with a choice isn't wrestling past July 10 so they have time to peak for worlds.  

Dieringer is being forced to wrestle 6 weeks after everyone else.  This is a timeline that USA Wrestling clearly sees as less than ideal.  There is no way Dake would choose to compete on August 17 if he was healthy all year.  It is clearly not ideal in a perfect world situation.  There is no way you don't get that. 

 

That is not true.  All the number ones are scheduled to compete at Yasar Dogu which is 7/11-7/14.  Also Fix, Retherford, Burroughs, Downey, Snyder, and Gwiz were announced on the team for the Pan Am Games 8/8-8/9.  I think the guys at the the non-olympic weights are not part of the team because the games only has the Olympic weights.  Not sure if the others will wrestle in Minsk or Tbilisi, that weekend, but neither are ranking series events.  There are no Senior freestyle events between the Pan Am games and the World Championships other than the African Games, so the fact that no guys on the freestyle world team are competing in between those events is meaningless.  There are no opportunities for them to compete. 

Edited by Fishbane
No non-Olympic weights at the games?

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10 hours ago, nom said:

I suppose Ringer could have skipped Dogu if he felt that peaking for so long is a bad thing.  

I need to bail out of this too ....

I’ll summarize my stance:

USAWrestling has a rule in place that says returning world medalists may delay their final X bout until right before leaving for acclimation camp.  The spirit of this rule is to help ensure we have the best wrestler representing the USA.  

It is obvious, on its face, that the intention is to allow the injured returning medalist to get back to wrestling form so that they stand a chance of winning at Final X. If you disagree with this, I’d rather not continue the discussion with you.

Dake was injured.  He has been recovering and trying to get back to form.  A date was selected for the wrestle off that is BEFORE the final deadline.  But it is LATER than his opponent would like. 

As part of getting back to form, which again, is inherently part of permitting a delay for the returning medalist, Dake’s camp felt that going to a competition would help.   Some feel that this is not fair.  I do not get this idea of being unfair.  Why should USA wrestling or anyone else dictate how the returning medalist gets back to form?  The answer is .. there is no answer.  They should not.

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit by basically saying "Dake is not breaking the rules" but then saying "why should USA wrestling dictate how he gets back to form."   The rules you are hanging your argument on were created by USA wrestling so USA Wrestling can most certainly dictate it.  While not an official rule (yet), it was reported that USA Wrestling specifically did not originally want Dake competing prior to the match with Dieringer, and only gave in after Dake's team pushed back citing the "law" (whether or not it actually involved lawyers).   If you don't want to believe those reports, fine.

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4 hours ago, nom said:

Arghh - some quick replies

Tbar - your reading comprehension needs improvement.  Reread.  I’m waiting for you to claim that DT games the system.  You are a hypocrite if you feel he did not and Dake did.  

Tbert - you have no logical reply to my points.  Just histrionics and whiny stamping of feet.

Boconnell - I did acknowledge that that I do get why people don’t like the later wrestle off date.  I am also saying Aug 1 wouldn’t be much better.  The anger over a couple weeks, given that Ringet could have skipped Dogu to avoid the need to peak so consistently .. be he didn’t.  It must not be that bad for him.  Earlier wrestle off, no Dogu.  A trade off.  Note, the gap of Dogu to wrestle off is about the same as wrestle off to worlds.  

Dake’s late notice on the delay - yes, he could have announced sooner.  I think he should have for sportsmanship purposes.   I haven’t addressed this at all. I am debating this thread’s topic - his attendance at competition event in Spain.  On the late announced delay - I do recognize that delayed announcements have value to the announcer as option value exists.  But I think that value is small in this situation.  

I get why people are mad at the late announcement.  On the setting of the date for the wrestle off at a time when Dake can get back to form ...  I get why it isn’t ideal for Dieringer but it also isn’t horrible (he wouldn’t wrestle at Dogu if the peaking thing is so bad), and it is in line with USA wrestling goals and spirit of allowing a delay.  Let the returning medalist get back to form.  Get the best guys to worlds. 

You seem to be more annoyed with USA wrestling rules in this whole thing.  I get that.  I made another thread on how those rules should be changed.  I would support change.

You continually make excuses for what Dake is doing while claiming Taylor gamed the system. Taylor did not yank anyone around for months waiting to find out when they were going to wrestle, Dake is the one who did that. 

The only wrestler who you could even make a case for being impacted by Taylor waitiing all of less than 3 weeks to announce he wasn't competing was his team mate Bo Nickal, and you have must realize he almost assuredly spoke with Nickal about his condition. 

What the two wrestlers did is completely different. 

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7 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

What the two wrestlers did is completely different. 

Correct.  Neither of which being anywhere near worthy of the whining, cry-out from the wrestling community. Neither made any rush to judgement decisions, neither broke any rules, neither "gamed" the system, they both used the procedures in place to resolve the scenario best for them.  End of story.

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54 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit by basically saying "Dake is not breaking the rules" but then saying "why should USA wrestling dictate how he gets back to form."   The rules you are hanging your argument on were created by USA wrestling so USA Wrestling can most certainly dictate it.  While not an official rule (yet), it was reported that USA Wrestling specifically did not originally want Dake competing prior to the match with Dieringer, and only gave in after Dake's team pushed back citing the "law" (whether or not it actually involved lawyers).   If you don't want to believe those reports, fine.

If the rule doesn't say anything about whether live competition is allowed before the postponement date, why would you think that means that USA Wrestling gets to make ad hoc decisions about it? How the hell am I, the obvious radical left winger, the one who has to explain textualism?

If USA Wrestling didn't have a formal basis to stop Dake, why wouldn't Dake point that out? If USA Wrestling actually threatened to stop him, why would he roll over? It isn't about whether or not I believe the reports, it is that in the worst case scenario you're proposing: Dake threatened to sue USA Wrestling if they tried to prevent him from getting in live competition to prepare for Final X - I literally do not understand why you would think that he would do anything else.

Dake asked for a postponement on the last possible day, which in English is "on an appropriate day within the rules." You can twist yourself into knots trying to make that problematic but you look ridiculous. Tbar is claiming Dake "jerked people around" but as far as I can tell everyone knew that Dake was going to ask for a delay even though Dake hadn't been open about what his injury was. I don't know if August 17 is bad for Dieringer but if one of the reasons he wants it sooner is because he wants to catch Dake at less than 100%, I am entirely unsympathetic. 

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39 minutes ago, ugarte said:

If the rule doesn't say anything about whether live competition is allowed before the postponement date, why would you think that means that USA Wrestling gets to make ad hoc decisions about it? How the hell am I, the obvious radical left winger, the one who has to explain textualism?

If USA Wrestling didn't have a formal basis to stop Dake, why wouldn't Dake point that out? If USA Wrestling actually threatened to stop him, why would he roll over? It isn't about whether or not I believe the reports, it is that in the worst case scenario you're proposing: Dake threatened to sue USA Wrestling if they tried to prevent him from getting in live competition to prepare for Final X - I literally do not understand why you would think that he would do anything else.

Dake asked for a postponement on the last possible day, which in English is "on an appropriate day within the rules." You can twist yourself into knots trying to make that problematic but you look ridiculous. Tbar is claiming Dake "jerked people around" but as far as I can tell everyone knew that Dake was going to ask for a delay even though Dake hadn't been open about what his injury was. I don't know if August 17 is bad for Dieringer but if one of the reasons he wants it sooner is because he wants to catch Dake at less than 100%, I am entirely unsympathetic. 

According to the rules, the date is not up to Dake and Dake alone, and specifically states if an agreement is not reached the committee will set the date.

http://content.themat.com/forms/2019-WTT-MFS.pdf

In the case of a delayed Final Wrestle-Off, the National Coach and athletes involved shall determine the date, time, and place for the Final WrestleOff. If consensus cannot be reached, the Men’s Freestyle Sport Committee shall make this determination

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

 

You seem to be contradicting yourself a bit by basically saying "Dake is not breaking the rules" but then saying "why should USA wrestling dictate how he gets back to form."   The rules you are hanging your argument on were created by USA wrestling so USA Wrestling can most certainly dictate it.  While not an official rule (yet), it was reported that USA Wrestling specifically did not originally want Dake competing prior to the match with Dieringer, and only gave in after Dake's team pushed back citing the "law" (whether or not it actually involved lawyers).   If you don't want to believe those reports, fine.

Am I contradicting myself?  I do not think I am.  Dake’s camp asserting their rights is fine by me.  I’m not getting your point.  Do you feel a wrestler and his camp can’t assert their rights?  I have to admit, I’m not following.  Sorry.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Correct.  Neither of which being anywhere near worthy of the whining, cry-out from the wrestling community. Neither made any rush to judgement decisions, neither broke any rules, neither "gamed" the system, they both used the procedures in place to resolve the scenario best for them.  End of story.

End of story is too simplistic in Dake's case considering how much Ringer is being yanked around. There in lies the difference. 

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

You continually make excuses for what Dake is doing while claiming Taylor gamed the system. Taylor did not yank anyone around for months waiting to find out when they were going to wrestle, Dake is the one who did that. 

The only wrestler who you could even make a case for being impacted by Taylor waitiing all of less than 3 weeks to announce he wasn't competing was his team mate Bo Nickal, and you have must realize he almost assuredly spoke with Nickal about his condition. 

What the two wrestlers did is completely different. 

So reports that another wrestler’s camp (flowrestling reports) wanted to know DT’s status ahead of the final X series are incorrect according to you.  You know for certain DT’s lack of transparency only impacted Nickal?

If so, then I will admit I am wrong.

And note, I’m not upset at DT either way.  I’m aiming to root out your hypocrisy.  

I propose that’s DT looked out for his best interests as it relates to the timing of his announcement.  I propose Dake is looking out for his own best interests as it relates to the timing of his final X bouts.

 

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1 minute ago, tbert said:

Reports say Dake produced a doctor note stating he can wrestle 8/17.

He wrestled on 7/6.

He is jerking the system and ducking Ringer.

  End of story

What exactly did the note say?  Did it say he can’t wrestle a live wrestling match before 8/17 or ... that he can reasonably ready for final X by that date.  

Your stance is that the note states he can’t wrestle a live match before he 8/17?  If so, pls provide some proof.

Anyone that thinks Dake would not wrestle a live match prior to wrestling Dieringer is a bit dim witted.

damn, keep trying to extract myself.

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7 minutes ago, nom said:

What exactly did the note say?  Did it say he can’t wrestle a live wrestling match before 8/17 or ... that he can reasonably ready for final X by that date.  

Your stance is that the note states he can’t wrestle a live match before he 8/17?  If so, pls provide some proof.

Anyone that thinks Dake would not wrestle a live match prior to wrestling Dieringer is a bit dim witted.

damn, keep trying to extract myself.

Of course we don't know, but I think the most likely wording was the note said he could not "compete" before 8/17.   "Wrestling a live match" is not competing.

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25 minutes ago, nom said:

Am I contradicting myself?  I do not think I am.  Dake’s camp asserting their rights is fine by me.  I’m not getting your point.  Do you feel a wrestler and his camp can’t assert their rights?  I have to admit, I’m not following.  Sorry.

My point is you're saying "Dake's camp is asserting his rights" based on "the rules."  But the rules also say the committee has a say in the date if the participants can not agree, so they can in fact "dictate how he gets back to form."

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8 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

  But the rules also say the committee has a say in the date if the participants can not agree, so they can in fact "dictate how he gets back to form."

 

They only way the statement above could conceivably be seen as correct is if your interpretation of “the committee having a say” is purely just by determining the date of Final X. Otherwise, how could you possibly believe any rule states that the committee has complete oversight on how any wrestler trains and “gets back to form.” 

I’m almost certain nobody on this forum knows what the doctor note said and speculating I suppose is fine but what’s not fine is speculating and trying to pass off your opinion as a fact. 

Is it annoying this is happening and does it deem a possible rule change, yeah probably. Dake wrestling in a tournament to prepare for the world team spot does not appear to be breaking any rules given what someone posted above that’s in the rule book. 

Let’s just get the best wrestler to Worlds and simmer down about speculation of notes and committee jurisdiction etc...

Edited by DoubleHalf

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59 minutes ago, DoubleHalf said:

 

They only way the statement above could conceivably be seen as correct is if your interpretation of “the committee having a say” is purely just by determining the date of Final X. Otherwise, how could you possibly believe any rule states that the committee has complete oversight on how any wrestler trains and “gets back to form.” 

Yes it is by determining the date of Final X.  I'm not taking anything as "fact," but based on the "Content Director" of the biggest wrestling website there is, the implication was definitely that in determining that date, it was based on the committee believing that was the earliest (edit: or at least soon after) he was cleared to compete (since they did not originally want him to compete sooner).  

Edited by 1032004

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

End of story is too simplistic in Dake's case considering how much Ringer is being yanked around. There in lies the difference. 

Only if you are hell bent on finding something to gripe about what someone else did/said, which unfortunately is all to common today. But those who aren’t and as such just able to see something for what it is....nobody is being jerked around, screwed, put at a disadvantage. There was an injury, there’s a process for what to do should there be an injury, that process was followed. Not agreeing with every pinpoint detail on how that process was correctly and appropriately followed in no way makes it anything close to wrong. As far as Spain, Wrestling some easy competition is completely logical part of injury rehab before such an important competition (why do injured world class pitchers do a stint in the minors as part of their injury rehab?) anyone who can’t see that either doesn’t want to see it or just has never been in a position to understand. They got a delayed date. They are both continuing their, while adjusted, own particular training schedules, they are both competing before their set match date, a date that both parties know well ahead of time. DT’s situation is different, but similar in that is was questioned by many but that makes it in no way wrong because procedures were correctly and appropriately followed. Regardless of who agrees with every pinpoint detail of it.  “End of story”...yeah it really is that simple.

 

Now maybe we can drop this and everyone can go over to that other Dake/Ringer thread where people are actually talking about how they see the match playing out.  

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

According to the rules, the date is not up to Dake and Dake alone, and specifically states if an agreement is not reached the committee will set the date.

http://content.themat.com/forms/2019-WTT-MFS.pdf

And? The date that was selected, whether by agreement or committee decision was August 17. You still haven't shown anything that demonstrates that USA Wrestling can, once a date has been selected, set rules on what the wrestler can do during the intervening time.

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

Of course we don't know, but...

sorry, stopped reading after that since you're making it up.

1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

My point is you're saying "Dake's camp is asserting his rights" based on "the rules."  But the rules also say the committee has a say in the date if the participants can not agree, so they can in fact "dictate how he gets back to form."

what part of "in the date" also includes "in the training methods"? 

Edited by ugarte

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1 hour ago, nom said:

What exactly did the note say?  Did it say he can’t wrestle a live wrestling match before 8/17 or ... that he can reasonably ready for final X by that date.  

Your stance is that the note states he can’t wrestle a live match before he 8/17?  If so, pls provide some proof.

Anyone that thinks Dake would not wrestle a live match prior to wrestling Dieringer is a bit dim witted.

damn, keep trying to extract myself.

Once again, note allegedly stated 8/17, I heard it from Flow.  He wrestled on 7/6.   Do I have a proof, no. Do you?  I dont even know if he is really injured.  I dont have proof of that either. Maybe he wanted some time with his newborn as far as I know. I dont care the reason. 

You originally, before becoming unhinged,  wanted to know why people felt that Dake was jobbing the system.

This is why.  The date he could wrestle was 8/17 but  he wrestled on 7/6.   

Explain to me why he is entitled to wrestle an international tournament but not his own country's qualifying tourney?

 

 

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, tbert said:

Once again, note allegedly stated 8/17, I heard it from Flow.  He wrestled on 7/6.   Do I have a proof, no. Do you?  I dont even know if he is really injured.  I dont have proof of that either. Maybe he wanted some time with his newborn as far as I know. I dont care the reason. 

You originally, before becoming unhinged,  wanted to know why people felt that Dake was jobbing the system.

This is why.  The date he could wrestle was 8/17 but  he wrestled on 7/6.   

Explain to me why he is entitled to wrestle an international tournament but not his own country's qualifying tourney?

i don't think anybody doubts that the doctor's note said 8/17 was the appropriate date for Final X. What everyone is speculating about is whether the note said that "competition would jeopardize his health" or "August 17 is the date when he will both have recovered from his injury and rehabbed back to match shape." If you are healthy but not in peak condition, you can go to Spain without worrying about getting hurt but also not caring much if you aren't good enough to win because there are no stakes.

My point is that if you are making a claim that Dake's doctors misrepresented the earliest date that he could wrestle without getting reinjured, you're going to have to show me that letter.

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I actually saw the doctor's note.  It said that 8/17 was the earliest possible date that Dake would be sufficiently healed to compete at full strength.

(Not true that I saw such a note, but I figure since so many others are just making S@#$ up, hey, why not? :-P)

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9 minutes ago, ugarte said:

And? The date that was selected, whether by agreement or committee decision was August 17. You still haven't shown anything that demonstrates that USA Wrestling can, once a date has been selected, set rules on what the wrestler can do during the intervening time.

what part of "in the date" also includes "in the training methods"? 

I showed that it was reported that USA Wrestling did in fact "set rules" on what the wrestler can do during the intervening time.  For whatever reason, at least one of them changed their minds.

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13 minutes ago, ugarte said:

i don't think anybody doubts that the doctor's note said 8/17 was the appropriate date for Final X. What everyone is speculating about is whether the note said that "competition would jeopardize his health" or "August 17 is the date when he will both have recovered from his injury and rehabbed back to match shape." If you are healthy but not in peak condition, you can go to Spain without worrying about getting hurt but also not caring much if you aren't good enough to win because there are no stakes.

My point is that if you are making a claim that Dake's doctors misrepresented the earliest date that he could wrestle without getting reinjured, you're going to have to show me that letter.

Why do you think the doctor's note said anything about "Final X"?   Any doctor worth their salt wouldn't clear you for one official competition but not another.

Or are you suggesting the note said he was cleared to compete by 8/17, but chose to compete earlier (IMO, saying "competition would jeopardize health" is not clearing him)? I guess that is possible.

I don't think the argument is that the doctor "misrepresented" the date.  Just that he might have initially said one date, but then later moved it up (according to Willie @ Flo).

Edited by 1032004

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15 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Or are you suggesting the note said he was cleared to compete by 8/17, but chose to compete earlier (IMO, saying "competition would jeopardize health" is not clearing him)? I guess that is possible.

This is pretty much my position - that his recovery schedule indicated 8/17 and any earlier competing was at his own risk (to his health and his record).

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