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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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7 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Some other questions - Are those leading questions? Is it gaming the system to demand a wrestle off at barely less than the two week cutoff and then cynically compete more than 5 weeks prior to that?  Was the dude even injured?  Why is he more special than the other returning medalists who honored a system of fair play by competing at the designated time?

You mean the other medalists who honored a system and didn't have an injury that USA Wrestling certified? And talk about leading--"honored a system," "special," "gaming the system," etc.  Basically, Kyle Dake has no honor and thinks he's special so he gamed the system and probably isn't injured at all.  

Personally, I want everyone to follow the same rules (which has been done here; like Dake or the rules or not, he followed them) and to send the best man possible (I really don't care if it's Dake or Ringer, just make it the best guy).  Some of you just hate Dake, Koll, Cornell, the Finger Lakes region, whatever, which you are free to do.  

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I'm seeing two takes on this issue that can be summed up in answers to two questions.
First, is the overall objective to send the best man most capable of winning a gold medal to the World Championship?  If you answer "yes" (as I guess most would), then you have two competitors, one a defending World Champ who was injured/not fully ready at Final X, and an extremely talented challenger with some solid credentials under his belt but no senior World Championship/Olympic experience.  USA Wrestling accepted a delay in wrestle-off appeal, and it has no rules stipulating that either man cannot compete between the acceptance of the appeal and the rescheduled wrestle-off.  Both men are taking advantage of this and doing a tune-up tournament at two separate locations, as is their right and completely within the rules as set.
Second, is it "fair" that a guy who appealed for a delay in wrestle-off is well enough to go to a tune-up tournament before the wrestle-off?  If by your definition of "fair" this is a violation of fairness, well, then you have a beef with the way the rules were written (which were not written by either competitor). If you believe this, then the idea of sending the very best man is not the job of USA Wrestling but living up to a standard of fairness established by, you got it, YOU.  And that's fine.  We can all argue about what's "fair" (Pat Downey is going to Worlds and Bo Nickal is not permitted a chance to challenge him; why? because that's the rule, fair or not).  While Ringer might be better than Dake head-to-head at this juncture, we really can't be sure until they settle it in the circle.  If it's more important to you to be "fair" (as defined by you) than to send the very best man to Worlds, then so be it.
Regardless of how you answer the above questions, the fact is that both men are exercising their rights within the established rules.  Argue for a change of rules or procedure, but to question a man's "courage" or ethics is just sour.
Nickal wasn't banned from competing at 86 kg, he chose not to compete because of Carl and Taylor.

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1 minute ago, Coach_J said:

You mean the other medalists who honored a system and didn't have an injury that USA Wrestling certified? And talk about leading--"honored a system," "special," "gaming the system," etc.  Basically, Kyle Dake has no honor and thinks he's special so he gamed the system and probably isn't injured at all.  

Personally, I want everyone to follow the same rules (which has been done here; like Dake or the rules or not, he followed them) and to send the best man possible (I really don't care if it's Dake or Ringer, just make it the best guy).  Some of you just hate Dake, Koll, Cornell, the Finger Lakes region, whatever, which you are free to do.  

These are your words, not mine.  I don't hate anybody, but this is sport not the coronation of individuals.  Next year we change the rules so this doesn't happen again. 

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1 minute ago, cjc007 said:

Nickal wasn't banned from competing at 86 kg, he chose not to compete because of Carl and Taylor.

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He was not given an option to move down as many wished would happen.  Why?  The rules forbade it.  We're talking about following the established rules.  Many wanted Bo to be given the opportunity to challenge PD because of Taylor's injury.  The rules did not allow for this.

I personally think PD is a d-bag, but he followed the rules as established and he's going to Worlds and I accept that.  Zain won the second X bout on what I thought was an absolutely horrible call, but as of now the rules say he is our man and I accept that.  I really like both Yanni and Zain (I think Yanni would have better results at Worlds than Zain but that's really beside the point) so I have no dog in that fight.  Dake follows the rules and he's a cheat, a coward, has no integrity, gamed the system, blah blah.  He followed the damn rules.  And I like Ringer--no problem whatsoever if he knocks Dake off.

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1 minute ago, Plasmodium said:

These are your words, not mine.  I don't hate anybody, but this is sport not the coronation of individuals.  Next year we change the rules so this doesn't happen again. 

I quoted you directly and the insinuation was very clear.  Like I've said, don't like the rules, change them, but to trash a guy who followed them is sour.

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Just now, Coach_J said:

I quoted you directly and the insinuation was very clear.  Like I've said, don't like the rules, change them, but to trash a guy who followed them is sour.

Of course its sour.   Sour is only one the negative aspects of this situation.  Do you think Kyle Dake has accumulated honor with this behavior?

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4 minutes ago, Plasmodium said:

Of course its sour.   Sour is only one the negative aspects of this situation.  Do you think Kyle Dake has accumulated honor with this behavior?

Did he act honorably by following the rules?  Not really my place to judge that.

Did he act within the rules in a way he believes will best prepare him to win the trials and repeat as World Champion?  My guess would be "yes."

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15 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

I quoted you directly and the insinuation was very clear.  Like I've said, don't like the rules, change them, but to trash a guy who followed them is sour.

He didn’t follow the rules though. At best he bent them, at worst he straight up broke them. 

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1 minute ago, Coach_J said:

Did he act honorably by following the rules?  Not really my place to judge that.

Did he act within the rules in a way he believes will best prepare him to win the trials and repeat as World Champion?  My guess would be "yes."

 

It’s the Internet, this is pretty much THE place for judging.

People get criticized all the time despite “following the rules.”   Are there rules against ducking or coaches challenging looking for a hands to the face call?   No, but there was plenty of criticism when that happened last year.

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I don't buy the argument this is within the rules.

The rule clearly states that to delay a wrestle off you need written explanation from a doctor why you can't wrestle. If you have a doctor's note saying you can't wrestle you shouldn't be wrestling. Seems pretty cut and dry to me. So I guess we are saying Dake is medically cleared to wrestle anyone but Alex? 

USA Wrestling told Dake no and he threatened to get lawyers involved and USA Wrestling backed down. That is the only thing that makes it within the "rules". 

Even if you are okay with all of that, think it is perfectly fine for Dake to be able to get tune up matches, why are we making Alex wait an additional month and a half after this weekend? Dake can wrestle this weekend but he can't face Alex until August 17? 

Edited by osufan12

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13 hours ago, Molsen said:

Everyone that has an issue with this, better have a problem with injured returning medalists delaying matches period. The point of putting off the match until they are healthy, is so that we can get the best guy out there. Him being able to knock off a little rust is better for our team. You being so anti this makes it feel like you want a less then 100% version of Dake for whatever reason. Dake will still have to win the spot, and is still at a disadvantage that you guys want him to have, because hes been hurt and not wrestling. The better wrestler will win, and hopefully bring us a gold.

Not following you here.  I don’t think there was much issue with the delay to begin with.   The issue only came about because he decided he was going to wrestle before his apparent doctor’s note said he was cleared to.

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2 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Did he act within the rules in a way he believes will best prepare him to win the trials and repeat as World Champion?  My guess would be "yes."

 

If what FRL reported is true, can you describe Dake threatening lawsuits as just "acting within the rules"? Imho it's something more than that.

 

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Are lawsuits new??? Dan Freaking Gable, the ultimate competitor, was Olympic coach when he backed his man Lewis after Lewis was injured in the middle of a damn match against Lee Roy Smith and couldn't continue (a match Smith was winning). A simple injury default loss, right, and Smith rightfully wins the spot? Lewis/Gable take it to court and the rest is history.  Sieracki/Lindland is another.  Sieracki wins a the Olympic spot but appeared to commit a leg foul.  Goes to court, and a few hours after returning from an overseas tourney Sieracki is forced to rewrestle the bout.  And Marable's "mystery concussion" (be real, dude couldn't make weight).  Green is forced to wait out the court delays then meets Marable and blows him away by sweeping the wrestle-off.  My advice to Ringer--quit listening to the whiners and get ready to blow Dake away.

Edited by Coach_J

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He was not given an option to move down as many wished would happen.  Why?  The rules forbade it.  We're talking about following the established rules.  Many wanted Bo to be given the opportunity to challenge PD because of Taylor's injury.  The rules did not allow for this.
I personally think PD is a d-bag, but he followed the rules as established and he's going to Worlds and I accept that.  Zain won the second X bout on what I thought was an absolutely horrible call, but as of now the rules say he is our man and I accept that.  I really like both Yanni and Zain (I think Yanni would have better results at Worlds than Zain but that's really beside the point) so I have no dog in that fight.  Dake follows the rules and he's a cheat, a coward, has no integrity, gamed the system, blah blah.  He followed the damn rules.  And I like Ringer--no problem whatsoever if he knocks Dake off.
He was given the option to wrestle at the WTT's and chose to go 92 kg.

Why would he be given a special wrestle off at 86 kg when he lost at 92 kg?



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24 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

 

It’s the Internet, this is pretty much THE place for judging.

People get criticized all the time despite “following the rules.”   Are there rules against ducking or coaches challenging looking for a hands to the face call?   No, but there was plenty of criticism when that happened last year.

I said I didn't feel it was MY place to judge in this case.  My decision.  Other cases, I have no problem making a judgment.  You want to judge, feel free.

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2 minutes ago, cjc007 said:

He was given the option to wrestle at the WTT's and chose to go 92 kg.

Why would he be given a special wrestle off at 86 kg when he lost at 92 kg?



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I never said he should.  I said many felt he should--I wasn't one of them.  Completely separate issue but a similarity in that we're talking about following established rules, no matter if those rules happen to suck.  You can't move the goal posts in the middle of the game.  Don't like it, change it.

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13 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Are lawsuits new??? Dan Freaking Gable, the ultimate competitor, was Olympic coach when he backed his man Lewis after was Lewis was injured in the middle of a damn match against Lee Roy Smith and couldn't continue (a match Smith was winning). A simple injury default loss, right, and Smith rightfully wins the spot? Lewis/Gable take it to court and the rest is history.  Sieracki/Lindland is another.  Sieracki wins a the Olympic spot but appeared to commit a leg foul.  Goes to court, and a few hours after returning from an overseas tourney Sieracki is forced to rewrestle the bout.  And Marable's "mystery concussion" (be real, dude couldn't make weight).  Green is forced to wait out the court delays then meets Marable and blows him away by sweeping the wrestle-off.  My advice to Ringer--quit listening to the whiners and get ready to blow Dake away.

You are moving the goalposts here. No one said lawsuits were new. Your whole argument is that Dake is following rules. Threatening legal action and USA Wrestling backing doesn't make this within the rules. This is clearly outside of the rules. 

Edited by osufan12

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I never said he should.  I said many felt he should--I wasn't one of them.  Completely separate issue but a similarity in that we're talking about following established rules, no matter if those rules happen to suck.  You can't move the goal posts in the middle of the game.  Don't like it, change it.
I agree with your assessment of the Dake situation and respect your integrity.

You don't let your prejudice dictate logic.



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4 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

You are moving the goalposts here. No one said lawsuits were new. Your whole argument is that Dake is following rules. Threatening legal action and USA Wrestling backing doesn't make this within the rules. This is clearly outside of the rules. 

Pointing out documented fact is not moving a goal post.  Lawsuits have not only been threatened in the past but also taken, and two of the most famous involve a legend in Gable and our national coach in Lindland.  If threatening a lawsuit makes you a dirtbag, Dake has a lot of prestigious company.

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29 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

0

Pointing out documented fact is not moving a goal post.  Lawsuits have not only been threatened in the past but also taken, and two of the most famous involve a legend in Gable and our national coach in Lindland.  If threatening a lawsuit makes you a dirtbag, Dake has a lot of prestigious company.

I don't think Dake is a dirtbag. He seems like a good dude (besides being a hypocrite). I think he is breaking the rules though. The fact that USA Wrestling doesn't want to enforce them (by a 4-3 vote) doesn't mean he isn't breaking them. He delayed their wrestle off so he could get a practice tournament in, not because he is injured. Dake is not injured. If Dake is wrestling this weekend he clearly hasn't been injured in a while.

End of they day, great for Dake. It is the best possible outcome for him. Going forward if this leads to rule changes that gives our returning medalists less injury protection it won't be a good thing for USA Wrestling. 

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55 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

I said I didn't feel it was MY place to judge in this case.  My decision.  Other cases, I have no problem making a judgment.  You want to judge, feel free.

Well you didn’t have a problem judging the other people criticizing it.

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"using lawyers is bad. what you should do is just shut up and take it." from the guy complaining that too many ivy league kids voted for hillary instead of the guy who has literally sued his way through life. pick a lane.
Maybe they can get an ex Governor to write a report totally exonerating Cornell, Koll, and everyone associated with the issue.

They could then vote Rob Koll as a University Trustee.



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12 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Well you didn’t have a problem judging the other people criticizing 

I'll repeat, I don't feel equipped to judge Dake as a villain in this particular case.  Other cases, I feel strongly enough about the facts to weigh in.  

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16 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

I don't think Dake is a dirtbag. He seems like a good dude (besides being a hypocrite). I think he is breaking the rules though. The fact that USA Wrestling doesn't want to enforce them (by a 4-3 vote) doesn't mean he isn't breaking them. He delayed their wrestle off so he could get a practice tournament in, not because he is injured. Dake is not injured. If Dake is wrestling this weekend he clearly hasn't been injured in a while.

End of they day, great for Dake. It is the best possible outcome for him. Going forward if this leads to rule changes that gives our returning medalists less injury protection it won't be a good thing for USA Wrestling. 

You're confusing being injured at the moment and not being ready because of a documented injury.  Two separate issues.  We're talking world class athletes.  They don't go back into competition the day they are medically cleared to begin training.  They have to rebuild their conditioning base, retrain their timing and muscle memory, etc.  Are they "injured" as they start this process? No.  Are they ready to compete? Also no.  Was Kevin Durant injured when he was cleared for the NBA finals?  Doctors said no.  Was he fully ready to compete? Based on blowing his Achilles and now looking at a full year off to rehab, I would say no as well.

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