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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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As much as this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I guess you could say to any wrestler thinking of going to Cornell that the university and RTC have your back and will do anything possible to put you in best position. There is some value to a program that will push for what it feels is right for its wrestlers.  

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6 minutes ago, Scorenomore said:

As much as this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I guess you could say to any wrestler thinking of going to Cornell that the university and RTC have your back and will do anything possible to put you in best position. There is some value to a program that will push for what it feels is right for its wrestlers.  

Right...no matter how it bad hurts the sport.   Cant get it honestly, then cheat.  Hats off to Koll and Dake !   That's  what I want my kids to learn.  I'm in 100%.  

 

Edited by tbert

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2 hours ago, 1032004 said:

Not following you here.  I don’t think there was much issue with the delay to begin with.   The issue only came about because he decided he was going to wrestle before his apparent doctor’s note said he was cleared to.

I guess my point is, if you arent willing to let him knock off the rust, why let him get a delay in the first place. He's not beating Dieringer without knocking off the rust from not wrestling because of surgery. If they didn't allow this, then they would likely just bring in some studs and do live matches to knock off the rust anyway, so this really isnt a big deal. But it seems like even that would piss people off because he would be doing that before he was "allowed to wrestle". It really just feels like a lot of you guys feel like Dake got hurt(or maybe dont even believe that) and does not deserve a trully fair shot at Dieringer because of it. 

Again, its better for the US team to have the best version of Dake, vs Dieringer who has been killing it.

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Have final X as late as possible. You don’t wrestle at final X you don’t compete at the world championships. Makes it more fair for the competitors and gives fans a better chance of seeing the card they paid for when attending final X. 

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2 minutes ago, Molsen said:

I guess my point is, if you arent willing to let him knock off the rust, why let him get a delay in the first place. He's not beating Dieringer without knocking off the rust from not wrestling because of surgery. If they didn't allow this, then they would likely just bring in some studs and do live matches to knock off the rust anyway, so this really isnt a big deal. But it seems like even that would piss people off because he would be doing that before he was "allowed to wrestle". It really just feels like a lot of you guys feel like Dake got hurt(or maybe dont even believe that) and does not deserve a trully fair shot at Dieringer because of it. 

Again, its better for the US team to have the best version of Dake, vs Dieringer who has been killing it.

I have no problem with Dake getting a later wrestle-off.  I don't even mind him having a warmup match. 

But how anyone could be ok with one Doctor's note for 1 match and a conflicting doctor's note for another match is beyond me.  Anyone who is ok with it, I don't believe this is your honest read.  I'm guessing you had a conclusion first and then sorted the facts. 

If this was going to happen then Dake and USA wrestling should have just said he's clear in July and the wrestle off is in August.  There's nothing wrong with that and it requires no deceit.

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2 hours ago, Coach_J said:

I said I didn't feel it was MY place to judge in this case.  My decision.  Other cases, I have no problem making a judgment.  You want to judge, feel free.

Ok so back to the facts then, what more do you need to know before you feel you can make a judgement?

He got a delay in the wrestle off because of a doctors note saying he was not cleared to compete until a certain date, but is competing somewhere else before that date.  You don’t have any problem with that?

 

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44 minutes ago, Scorenomore said:

As much as this leaves a bad taste in my mouth, I guess you could say to any wrestler thinking of going to Cornell that the university and RTC have your back and will do anything possible to put you in best position. There is some value to a program that will push for what it feels is right for its wrestlers.  

And if that is not enough, they'll sue!

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

You're confusing being injured at the moment and not being ready because of a documented injury.  Two separate issues.  We're talking world class athletes.  They don't go back into competition the day they are medically cleared to begin training.  They have to rebuild their conditioning base, retrain their timing and muscle memory, etc.  Are they "injured" as they start this process? No.  Are they ready to compete? Also no.  Was Kevin Durant injured when he was cleared for the NBA finals?  Doctors said no.  Was he fully ready to compete? Based on blowing his Achilles and now looking at a full year off to rehab, I would say no as well.

 

At what point does Dake actually have to show up to wrestle before this becomes completely unfair to Ringer for you? If Dake aggravates his injury this weekend and wants to push it back another month would you be okay with that? 

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44 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Ok so back to the facts then, what more do you need to know before you feel you can make a judgement?

He got a delay in the wrestle off because of a doctors note saying he was not cleared to compete until a certain date, but is competing somewhere else before that date.  You don’t have any problem with that?

 

Who said he could not or was medically forbidden to compete before the final wrestle-off with Ringer?  I need to know that.  Since you have inside information, I'll wait for you to provide that.  

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45 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

 

At what point does Dake actually have to show up to wrestle before this becomes completely unfair to Ringer for you? If Dake aggravates his injury this weekend and wants to push it back another month would you be okay with that? 

You don't get it.  It's not about me or you or anyone on this board.  It's about determining the best entrant in the 2019 World championship at 79 kilos.  That said, if Dake gets injured in Spain or before the rescheduled wrestle-off date, case closed, he's done.

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42 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

 

At what point does Dake actually have to show up to wrestle before this becomes completely unfair to Ringer for you? If Dake aggravates his injury this weekend and wants to push it back another month would you be okay with that? 

Come on man....after 10 years of whining, Kyle Dake has finally reached some sort of elite status with USAW and among his nuthugging fans.  Let them finally enjoy.

Whenever Kyle thinks he has somewhat of a chance at beating Ringer he will wrestle.  Until then we will have to put up with his pouting, foot stomping, my daddy gonna hire a lawyer ..childish behavior. 

 

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1 hour ago, Molsen said:

I guess my point is, if you arent willing to let him knock off the rust, why let him get a delay in the first place. He's not beating Dieringer without knocking off the rust from not wrestling because of surgery. If they didn't allow this, then they would likely just bring in some studs and do live matches to knock off the rust anyway, so this really isnt a big deal. But it seems like even that would piss people off because he would be doing that before he was "allowed to wrestle". It really just feels like a lot of you guys feel like Dake got hurt(or maybe dont even believe that) and does not deserve a trully fair shot at Dieringer because of it. 

Again, its better for the US team to have the best version of Dake, vs Dieringer who has been killing it.

I don’t think anyone would have a problem with them “bringing in studs” to do live matches.  Regardless of how hard he’s wrestling, that’s still different from wrestling official international matches.

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39 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Who said he could not or was medically forbidden to compete before the final wrestle-off with Ringer?  I need to know that.  Since you have inside information, I'll wait for you to provide that.  

According to Pyles on FRL, yes that is the case

Start at around 8:45 on yesterday's episode:

"They get the extension because they are not medically cleared to compete.   You get the extension up to the date that the doctor says you can wrestle."

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I'm still stretching to see what's wrong with this whole situation:

* If Dake, the returning WC, needs to test the waters at a 2nd Tier tourney prior to facing off against what could be the World Champion or World Medalist (in his own right), then I see no harm, so long as a.) he's medically cleared, and b.) the actual wrestle off date was agreed upon by the two parties. If he can squeeze in a little comp prior, I see no harm.

* If Dake injures himself again at said 2nd Tier tourney prior to facing off, Ringer wins the spot. No more delays.  Tough cookies.  

* Lastly, so long as all wrestlers in this position are treated the same, with the same expectations, timelines, allowances, etc., then it's fair.  

So... what's the actual argument?

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3 minutes ago, treep2000 said:

I see.. very interesting... 

The arguement is that he got a doctors note (apparently) saying he cant compete until august. Then he got a new doctors note clearing him sooner. It cant be that his recovery went smoother then expected. It has to be that he is gaming the system, to mess up dieringers training schedule, trying to give Dake an unfair advantage, or just plain cheating.

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44 minutes ago, Molsen said:

The arguement is that he got a doctors note (apparently) saying he cant compete until august. Then he got a new doctors note clearing him sooner. It cant be that his recovery went smoother then expected. It has to be that he is gaming the system, to mess up dieringers training schedule, trying to give Dake an unfair advantage, or just plain cheating.

Except, he is still sticking to the fact he can't wrestle Ringer until  mid-August for medical reasons. He is apparently medically cleared to wrestle international right now but he is not cleared to wrestle Ringer for another month and a half. That's the rub. 

Ringer is also put in the position where he needs to wrestle at Dogu to stay sharp because of the long layoff but if he gets hurt between now and when Dake decides he is 100% SOL, no chance to qualify for the world team. 

Edited by osufan12

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1 hour ago, 1032004 said:

According to Pyles on FRL, yes that is the case

Start at around 8:45 on yesterday's episode:

"They get the extension because they are not medically cleared to compete.   You get the extension up to the date that the doctor says you can wrestle."

Pyles on FLO?  C'mon, I'm talking about a doctor, documentation, something I can look at and say, "You know, you're right and I'm now taking your side in this."  I am more than willing to do this but Pyles on FLO doesn't do it.  If Dake was not medically cleared to compete until August and he's going to Spain, I'm with you.  If he was not medically cleared to compete at Final X and the make-up was scheduled for August and, based on that, he decided to get Spain in as a tune-up, I have no problem with that.  But I need to see something definitive, real evidence, proof, not a talking head on the internet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and if I'm wrong I'll apologize ahead of time, but I'm going to assume I've trained more wrestlers than you have (over a decade in college from D-III to D-I, a year in Europe, over another decade in high school, and now as an old man another decade in youth club level).  In college, we had many guys injured and go through extensive rehab.  They were initially "cleared" to begin light training and building their conditioning and timing but not ready to compete even though technically no longer injured.  Once we were assured they could do some live outside the room, we'd often send them to an open if we could and let them get a couple bouts in; at the first sign of fatigue, they were done and we pulled them as a precaution.  It was part of getting them back to top form without jeopardizing their competitive future.  When they were fully ready to go at peak performance, then they competed as the medical team saw fit.

I really don't see how it should be handled any different for World/Olympic competitors.  You want the competitors at their best if it can be arranged (ain't a perfect world, so often that just isn't possible).  In this case, Dake has earned consideration via being a returning World Champion.  You may not think that's "fair," but it's far more so than in other top nations.  For example, Sadulaev does not have to wrestle in the Russian nationals--he's proven himself, and until he stumbles their system sees him as having earned the top spot.  Fair?  Seems to have worked for them.  The Iranians are still sending out teams to compete in various international meets as part of their decision process--it's ongoing and nobody (except maybe Yaz) has a spot 100% sewn up.

Conspiracy theories about Dake's dad threatening a lawsuit, etc., are juvenile.  Was he probably prepared to take legal action if denied an extension?  He'd be an idiot if he didn't.  Did this cause USAW to cave?  Again, that's speculation, which isn't enough to move me in this case--show me some proof.  Threatening USA Wrestling doesn't seem to have helped Yanni so far, but I guess we'll see in that case too.

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44 minutes ago, osufan12 said:

Except, he is still sticking to the fact he can't wrestle Ringer until  mid-August for medical reasons. He is apparently medically cleared to wrestle international right now but he is not cleared to wrestle Ringer for another month and a half. That's the rub. 

Ringer is also put in the position where he needs to wrestle at Dogu to stay sharp because of the long layoff but if he gets hurt between now and when Dake decides he is 100% SOL, no chance to qualify for the world team. 

Dake could make the team without wrestling anyone? Nice system if you can get it. 

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24 minutes ago, Coach_J said:

Pyles on FLO?  C'mon, I'm talking about a doctor, documentation, something I can look at and say, "You know, you're right and I'm now taking your side in this."  I am more than willing to do this but Pyles on FLO doesn't do it.  If Dake was not medically cleared to compete until August and he's going to Spain, I'm with you.  If he was not medically cleared to compete at Final X and the make-up was scheduled for August and, based on that, he decided to get Spain in as a tune-up, I have no problem with that.  But I need to see something definitive, real evidence, proof, not a talking head on the internet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and if I'm wrong I'll apologize ahead of time, but I'm going to assume I've trained more wrestlers than you have (over a decade in college from D-III to D-I, a year in Europe, over another decade in high school, and now as an old man another decade in youth club level).  In college, we had many guys injured and go through extensive rehab.  They were initially "cleared" to begin light training and building their conditioning and timing but not ready to compete even though technically no longer injured.  Once we were assured they could do some live outside the room, we'd often send them to an open if we could and let them get a couple bouts in; at the first sign of fatigue, they were done and we pulled them as a precaution.  It was part of getting them back to top form without jeopardizing their competitive future.  When they were fully ready to go at peak performance, then they competed as the medical team saw fit.

I really don't see how it should be handled any different for World/Olympic competitors.  You want the competitors at their best if it can be arranged (ain't a perfect world, so often that just isn't possible).  In this case, Dake has earned consideration via being a returning World Champion.  You may not think that's "fair," but it's far more so than in other top nations.  For example, Sadulaev does not have to wrestle in the Russian nationals--he's proven himself, and until he stumbles their system sees him as having earned the top spot.  Fair?  Seems to have worked for them.  The Iranians are still sending out teams to compete in various international meets as part of their decision process--it's ongoing and nobody (except maybe Yaz) has a spot 100% sewn up.

Conspiracy theories about Dake's dad threatening a lawsuit, etc., are juvenile.  Was he probably prepared to take legal action if denied an extension?  He'd be an idiot if he didn't.  Did this cause USAW to cave?  Again, that's speculation, which isn't enough to move me in this case--show me some proof.  Threatening USA Wrestling doesn't seem to have helped Yanni so far, but I guess we'll see in that case too.

This pretty sums up any non-bias, non-looking for something to gripe about, point of view.

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all this talk about the 'best' entrant.

whatever happened to cinderella.

you have a tourney. and the one who wrestles the best on that date is the guy.

be ready when it counts.

I mean, after buster douglas won, did tyson keep his belt? 

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1 hour ago, osufan12 said:

Except, he is still sticking to the fact he can't wrestle Ringer until  mid-August for medical reasons. He is apparently medically cleared to wrestle international right now but he is not cleared to wrestle Ringer for another month and a half. That's the rub. 

Ringer is also put in the position where he needs to wrestle at Dogu to stay sharp because of the long layoff but if he gets hurt between now and when Dake decides he is 100% SOL, no chance to qualify for the world team. 

this

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

Pyles on FLO?  C'mon, I'm talking about a doctor, documentation, something I can look at and say, "You know, you're right and I'm now taking your side in this."  I am more than willing to do this but Pyles on FLO doesn't do it.  If Dake was not medically cleared to compete until August and he's going to Spain, I'm with you.  If he was not medically cleared to compete at Final X and the make-up was scheduled for August and, based on that, he decided to get Spain in as a tune-up, I have no problem with that.  But I need to see something definitive, real evidence, proof, not a talking head on the internet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and if I'm wrong I'll apologize ahead of time, but I'm going to assume I've trained more wrestlers than you have (over a decade in college from D-III to D-I, a year in Europe, over another decade in high school, and now as an old man another decade in youth club level).  In college, we had many guys injured and go through extensive rehab.  They were initially "cleared" to begin light training and building their conditioning and timing but not ready to compete even though technically no longer injured.  Once we were assured they could do some live outside the room, we'd often send them to an open if we could and let them get a couple bouts in; at the first sign of fatigue, they were done and we pulled them as a precaution.  It was part of getting them back to top form without jeopardizing their competitive future.  When they were fully ready to go at peak performance, then they competed as the medical team saw fit.

Were the dates of any competitions your wrestlers were “tuning up” for ever pushed back to accommodate your wrestlers?

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17 minutes ago, 1032004 said:

Were the dates of any competitions your wrestlers were “tuning up” for ever pushed back to accommodate your wrestlers?

Snarky rhetorical questions don't make your case; two different systems and you know it.  The national team process allows for appeals to delay final wrestle-offs and if approved accommodations are made.

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