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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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What this is saying is that Ringer is much stiffer competition than "international" wrestlers.  What if he went to Spain and wrestled, and they met.  Would that match have to be postponed until August?  I don't hate Dake, but this just seems rather disingenuous to me. 

mspart

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10 minutes ago, mspart said:

What this is saying is that Ringer is much stiffer competition than "international" wrestlers.  What if he went to Spain and wrestled, and they met.  Would that match have to be postponed until August?  I don't hate Dake, but this just seems rather disingenuous to me. 

mspart

I would love to see that.  If he started a GoFundMe, I'd contribute.

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

This pretty sums up any non-bias, non-looking for something to gripe about, point of view.

Exactly.  Coach J has talked and walked it.  It's not his first big day, nor is he looking for an angle like many others.  

 

Edited by Mphillips
grammar

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10 hours ago, Coach_J said:

I'm seeing two takes on this issue that can be summed up in answers to two questions.

First, is the overall objective to send the best man most capable of winning a gold medal to the World Championship?  If you answer "yes" (as I guess most would), then you have two competitors, one a defending World Champ who was injured/not fully ready at Final X, and an extremely talented challenger with some solid credentials under his belt but no senior World Championship/Olympic experience.  USA Wrestling accepted a delay in wrestle-off appeal, and it has no rules stipulating that either man cannot compete between the acceptance of the appeal and the rescheduled wrestle-off.  Both men are taking advantage of this and doing a tune-up tournament at two separate locations, as is their right and completely within the rules as set.

Second, is it "fair" that a guy who appealed for a delay in wrestle-off is well enough to go to a tune-up tournament before the wrestle-off?  If by your definition of "fair" this is a violation of fairness, well, then you have a beef with the way the rules were written (which were not written by either competitor). If you believe this, then the idea of sending the very best man is not the job of USA Wrestling but living up to a standard of fairness established by, you got it, YOU.  And that's fine.  We can all argue about what's "fair" (Pat Downey is going to Worlds and Bo Nickal is not permitted a chance to challenge him; why? because that's the rule, fair or not).  While Ringer might be better than Dake head-to-head at this juncture, we really can't be sure until they settle it in the circle.  If it's more important to you to be "fair" (as defined by you) than to send the very best man to Worlds, then so be it.

Regardless of how you answer the above questions, the fact is that both men are exercising their rights within the established rules.  Argue for a change of rules or procedure, but to question a man's "courage" or ethics is just sour.

This is false. Dake is likely breaking the rules. The only reason USA wrestling isn’t enforcing the rules as they understand them is because when they told Dake no, he lawyered up. USA wrestling then decided not to pursue it. 

I absolutely am also questioning his ethics. 

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2 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Pyles on FLO?  C'mon, I'm talking about a doctor, documentation, something I can look at and say, "You know, you're right and I'm now taking your side in this."  I am more than willing to do this but Pyles on FLO doesn't do it.  If Dake was not medically cleared to compete until August and he's going to Spain, I'm with you.  If he was not medically cleared to compete at Final X and the make-up was scheduled for August and, based on that, he decided to get Spain in as a tune-up, I have no problem with that.  But I need to see something definitive, real evidence, proof, not a talking head on the internet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and if I'm wrong I'll apologize ahead of time, but I'm going to assume I've trained more wrestlers than you have (over a decade in college from D-III to D-I, a year in Europe, over another decade in high school, and now as an old man another decade in youth club level).  In college, we had many guys injured and go through extensive rehab.  They were initially "cleared" to begin light training and building their conditioning and timing but not ready to compete even though technically no longer injured.  Once we were assured they could do some live outside the room, we'd often send them to an open if we could and let them get a couple bouts in; at the first sign of fatigue, they were done and we pulled them as a precaution.  It was part of getting them back to top form without jeopardizing their competitive future.  When they were fully ready to go at peak performance, then they competed as the medical team saw fit.

I really don't see how it should be handled any different for World/Olympic competitors.  You want the competitors at their best if it can be arranged (ain't a perfect world, so often that just isn't possible).  In this case, Dake has earned consideration via being a returning World Champion.  You may not think that's "fair," but it's far more so than in other top nations.  For example, Sadulaev does not have to wrestle in the Russian nationals--he's proven himself, and until he stumbles their system sees him as having earned the top spot.  Fair?  Seems to have worked for them.  The Iranians are still sending out teams to compete in various international meets as part of their decision process--it's ongoing and nobody (except maybe Yaz) has a spot 100% sewn up.

Conspiracy theories about Dake's dad threatening a lawsuit, etc., are juvenile.  Was he probably prepared to take legal action if denied an extension?  He'd be an idiot if he didn't.  Did this cause USAW to cave?  Again, that's speculation, which isn't enough to move me in this case--show me some proof.  Threatening USA Wrestling doesn't seem to have helped Yanni so far, but I guess we'll see in that case too.

You asked for evidence, it was provided, and you decided to ignore it. Sorry we don’t have Dake’s doctors notes. 

To your point about coaching a you absolutely have a lot of valuable experience and I enjoy learning from your posts. However in this case, it doesn’t matter. In fact, Jordan Burroughs agrees that Dake shouldn’t be allowed to wrestle. He voted against it. 

This isn’t a question of what is best for Dake. If that were the case, you’d be absolutely right. 

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27 minutes ago, Mphillips said:

Exactly.  Coach J has talked and walked it.  It's not his first big day, nor is he looking for an angle like many others.  

 

This isn’t a wrestling argument. Coach J is a great coach. He knows wrestling extremely well.  It just isn’t relevant here. We aren’t talking about what is best for Dake in terms of his wrestling ability. 

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Most of you commenting have no idea what you are talking about.  Here is the rule:

>>>The request will be granted if a certified medical doctor’s note is provided within the appropriate timeframe. In the case of a delayed Final Wrestle-Off, the National Coach and athletes involved shall determine the date, time, and place for the Final Wrestle-Off. If consensus cannot be reached, the Greco-Roman Sport Committee shall make this determination.<<<<

All the rules state is the athlete will be granted to delay the Final X if he has a Certified Dr's note. Kyle was not ready to compete due to an injury.  It was completely legal and within the rules.  The athletes and National Coach will determine the date.  No where does it say the Final Wrestle-off will be held the 1st day he is allowed to compete.  They apparently decided the date, and no one on this board knows how they came to that conclusion (including me).  Also, no where in the rules does it say he cannot compete between Final X and the Final Wrestle-off.  If anyone on this board can find that rule, then please post it.  

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

This is false. Dake is likely breaking the rules. The only reason USA wrestling isn’t enforcing the rules as they understand them is because when they told Dake no, he lawyered up. USA wrestling then decided not to pursue it. 

I absolutely am also questioning his ethics. 

Evidence.  "Likely" isn't very convincing.

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1 hour ago, Housebuye said:

You asked for evidence, it was provided, and you decided to ignore it. Sorry we don’t have Dake’s doctors notes. 

To your point about coaching a you absolutely have a lot of valuable experience and I enjoy learning from your posts. However in this case, it doesn’t matter. In fact, Jordan Burroughs agrees that Dake shouldn’t be allowed to wrestle. He voted against it. 

This isn’t a question of what is best for Dake. If that were the case, you’d be absolutely right. 

Didn't ignore anything.  The only evidence provided was a FLO broadcaster said so. I'm supposed to jump on board with that? Now you're telling me Jordan Burroughs said so--okay, I value his opinion, but how did the 4-3 vote in Dake's favor break down?  Who voted to approve his appeal?  Again, please give factual evidence.  I could really care less who goes to Worlds as long as it is the best guy; if that's Ringer, I'm all for it.  

This is directly from Flo:

"Dake, who qualified for Final X after winning a 2018 World medal, requested and received a delay of his championship series in Final X: Rutgers on June 8 due to injury. Dake was able to do this based upon the 2019 General World Team Trials Procedures. Dake met all of the requirements needed to receive a delay." (https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6517345-kyle-dake-and-alex-dieringer-will-wrestle-off-on-august-17-in-austin-texas)

This doesn't back the conspiracy theory at all.  Somebody saying the Flo guy said so and others saying Dake's lawyers scared USA Wrestling into caving without providing any evidence is flimsy in my estimation.  I'm not being flippant as some are.  I might totally agree with you.  I just want to see something other than a Flo announcer and uncorroborated accusations.

 

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4 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Snarky rhetorical questions don't make your case; two different systems and you know it.  The national team process allows for appeals to delay final wrestle-offs and if approved accommodations are made.

 

Then why even bring up your example if it wasn't relevant?

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1 hour ago, Coach_J said:

Didn't ignore anything.  The only evidence provided was a FLO broadcaster said so. I'm supposed to jump on board with that? Now you're telling me Jordan Burroughs said so--okay, I value his opinion, but how did the 4-3 vote in Dake's favor break down?  Who voted to approve his appeal?  Again, please give factual evidence.  I could really care less who goes to Worlds as long as it is the best guy; if that's Ringer, I'm all for it.  

This is directly from Flo:

"Dake, who qualified for Final X after winning a 2018 World medal, requested and received a delay of his championship series in Final X: Rutgers on June 8 due to injury. Dake was able to do this based upon the 2019 General World Team Trials Procedures. Dake met all of the requirements needed to receive a delay." (https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/6517345-kyle-dake-and-alex-dieringer-will-wrestle-off-on-august-17-in-austin-texas)

This doesn't back the conspiracy theory at all.  Somebody saying the Flo guy said so and others saying Dake's lawyers scared USA Wrestling into caving without providing any evidence is flimsy in my estimation.  I'm not being flippant as some are.  I might totally agree with you.  I just want to see something other than a Flo announcer and uncorroborated accusations.

 


Unless there are quotes from Dake, Koll or the doctor, "the Flo guys" are pretty much the best you're going to get.  They're reporters. Do you not believe any NFL free agent signings until the official team press conference?

Also from "the flo guys" but according to them, Derek Fix (Daton's dad and OSU RTC Coach, and Seth Duckworth (covers OSU), it was:

 

4 in favor of allowing it (from Fix and Duckworth): McCoy, Reiland, Foxen, Greg Strobel 

3 against (from Pyles): Jordan Burroughs, Coleman Scott, Jamill Kelly

Edited by 1032004

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6 minutes ago, 1032004 said:


Unless there are quotes from Dake, Koll or the doctor, "the Flo guys" are pretty much the best you're going to get.  They're reporters. Do you not believe any NFL free agent signings until the official team press conference?

Also from "the flo guys" but according to them, Derek Fix (Daton's dad and OSU RTC Coach, and Seth Duckworth (covers OSU), it was:

 

4 in favor of allowing it (from Fix and Duckworth): McCoy, Reiland, Foxen, Greg Strobel 

3 against (from Pyles): Jordan Burroughs, Coleman Scott, Jamill Kelly

Boy, you really got me on the NFL draft comment--teach me to ad lib with the master.  So we know who voted and how--Strobel, McCoy, Foxen, and Reiland have no integrity?  Dake toadies? The minority should rule? And the "verbiage" mentioned but not provided was a "recommendation" (whose?) not a rule or stipulation; basically, it doesn't sound like it was agreed upon, so why should it be followed? Show where it was a mandated condition that Dake not compete and I'm in (Pyles, Pyles, you there?).  What we know is that an appeal was filed and accepted (confirmed by your buddies at Flo) and that the national coaching staff and both competitors agreed a date; they now have to agree upon a site.  Must say, I have heard no whining from Ringer himself.  Really respect how he's handled this.

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9 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Pyles on FLO?  C'mon, I'm talking about a doctor, documentation, something I can look at and say, "You know, you're right and I'm now taking your side in this."  I am more than willing to do this but Pyles on FLO doesn't do it.  If Dake was not medically cleared to compete until August and he's going to Spain, I'm with you.  If he was not medically cleared to compete at Final X and the make-up was scheduled for August and, based on that, he decided to get Spain in as a tune-up, I have no problem with that.  But I need to see something definitive, real evidence, proof, not a talking head on the internet.

I'm going to make an assumption here and if I'm wrong I'll apologize ahead of time, but I'm going to assume I've trained more wrestlers than you have (over a decade in college from D-III to D-I, a year in Europe, over another decade in high school, and now as an old man another decade in youth club level).  In college, we had many guys injured and go through extensive rehab.  They were initially "cleared" to begin light training and building their conditioning and timing but not ready to compete even though technically no longer injured.  Once we were assured they could do some live outside the room, we'd often send them to an open if we could and let them get a couple bouts in; at the first sign of fatigue, they were done and we pulled them as a precaution.  It was part of getting them back to top form without jeopardizing their competitive future.  When they were fully ready to go at peak performance, then they competed as the medical team saw fit.

I really don't see how it should be handled any different for World/Olympic competitors.  You want the competitors at their best if it can be arranged (ain't a perfect world, so often that just isn't possible).  In this case, Dake has earned consideration via being a returning World Champion.  You may not think that's "fair," but it's far more so than in other top nations.  For example, Sadulaev does not have to wrestle in the Russian nationals--he's proven himself, and until he stumbles their system sees him as having earned the top spot.  Fair?  Seems to have worked for them.  The Iranians are still sending out teams to compete in various international meets as part of their decision process--it's ongoing and nobody (except maybe Yaz) has a spot 100% sewn up.

Conspiracy theories about Dake's dad threatening a lawsuit, etc., are juvenile.  Was he probably prepared to take legal action if denied an extension?  He'd be an idiot if he didn't.  Did this cause USAW to cave?  Again, that's speculation, which isn't enough to move me in this case--show me some proof.  Threatening USA Wrestling doesn't seem to have helped Yanni so far, but I guess we'll see in that case too.

All of your thoughts are 100% right...

but only if Dake is the better wrestler.  You have looked at everything from only 1 side with the assumption that what's best for Dake is what's best for USA wrestling's world championship chances.

If Dieringer is the better wrestler (due to skill or health or some combination of the 2) then delaying the wrestle off further than was necessary hurts Dieringer's ability to peak for the world championships.  

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2 minutes ago, boconnell said:

All of your thoughts are 100% right...

but only if Dake is the better wrestler.  You have looked at everything from only 1 side with the assumption that what's best for Dake is what's best for USA wrestling's world championship chances.

If Dieringer is the better wrestler (due to skill or health or some combination of the 2) then delaying the wrestle off further than was necessary hurts Dieringer's ability to peak for the world championships.  

It doesn't assume Dake is the better wrestler - it takes as  a starting point the built-in advantage that USA Wrestling has seen fit to give to defending World medalists. This benefits Dake because he fits the description, but the rule wasn't designed for Dake specifically. 

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8 minutes ago, ugarte said:

It doesn't assume Dake is the better wrestler - it takes as  a starting point the built-in advantage that USA Wrestling has seen fit to give to defending World medalists. This benefits Dake because he fits the description, but the rule wasn't designed for Dake specifically. 

That is correct.  That is the process.  Misread and misinterpreted on my part.

Edited by boconnell

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8 hours ago, Coach_J said:

Boy, you really got me on the NFL draft comment--teach me to ad lib with the master.  So we know who voted and how--Strobel, McCoy, Foxen, and Reiland have no integrity?  Dake toadies? The minority should rule? And the "verbiage" mentioned but not provided was a "recommendation" (whose?) not a rule or stipulation; basically, it doesn't sound like it was agreed upon, so why should it be followed? Show where it was a mandated condition that Dake not compete and I'm in (Pyles, Pyles, you there?).  What we know is that an appeal was filed and accepted (confirmed by your buddies at Flo) and that the national coaching staff and both competitors agreed a date; they now have to agree upon a site.  Must say, I have heard no whining from Ringer himself.  Really respect how he's handled this.

I’m not so sure Dieringer “agreed” to the date:

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2019/June/04/Dake-delays-series-against-Dieringer-due-to-injury

”If a delay is granted, the national coach and the two athletes involved shall determine the date...If an agreement can not be reached, then the style-specific sport committee will determine the date.”

 

https://www.teamusa.org/USA-Wrestling/Features/2019/July/02/Dake-v-Dieringer-in-Austin-on-August-17

”The date and city for this Final X Special Wrestle-Off were determine by USA Wrestling’s Freestyle Sport committee.”

Edited by 1032004

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5 hours ago, ugarte said:

It doesn't assume Dake is the better wrestler - it takes as  a starting point the built-in advantage that USA Wrestling has seen fit to give to defending World medalists. This benefits Dake because he fits the description, but the rule wasn't designed for Dake specifically. 

A thousand thank yous for pointing out what should be obvious.  This is really getting tedious.

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On 7/2/2019 at 12:02 PM, wildcatfan1992 said:

This is not a good look for Dake at all.  If he's healthy enough to wrestle in Spain, he should be mandated to have the wrestle off now.  The winner needs maximum prep time to peak for world's.  I want the best team to compete, and I hope that Ringer is that guy now.

Agree completely.  If USA Wrestling can delay the match due to injury, they can move it up a couple of weeks to meet their requirement that he wrestle when able, due to the miraculous recovery.

If he can compete internationally he can wrestle Ringer.

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USAW has dicked Dake repeatedly in the past when he tried making the world team and recently dicked Yianni. Dake is wired to not lose anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he wasn't taking a total binary position with USAW.

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