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Dake to compete in Spain before wrestle off with Dieringer

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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

interesting

 

 

They can’t really change it for next year because they made it a multi year process.  If you medal this year you get an advantage for next year.  

Also Dake, if he medals at 79kg, will get an advantage for next year.  So why would he want to change it?  He seems okay with using advantages that are afforded to him.  

Medalists at non Olympic weights get a bye to the semi finals of the Olympic trials.  So they wrestle a single match on day one of the OTT.  If he wins the best of three final is the following day.  If Burroughs earns a bye to the final by medaling at worlds this year then he would be the opponent in that best of three.  That is a huge difference over the advantage given to Burroughs in the past where Dake had to win the challenge tournament and then wrestle the best of three that same day.  If Burroughs fails to place and the 79kg/70kg rep does and wrestles 74kg at the trials then the 70/79kg rep will have a big advantage at the OTT.   And it should be easier to place at 70 or 79kg than 74kg.  

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I've read this topic with interest.  Near the end of the discussion I was struck by the inclusion of Jordan Burroughs on the list of persons who voted on Dake's application for an extension.  Burroughs was permitted to vote, despite the fact that he would appear to have a personal interest in the decision on the extension application.   It has been pointed out that medalists at non-olympic weights at the world championships receive a bye into the semi-finals of the OTT.  The determination on the application for an extension could have an impact on which wrestler Burroughs would face in the final best of three at the OTT.  This is not to suggest that Jordan Burroughs based his vote on anything other than his view on the merits of Dake's application.  My question is why USAW did not require a  a committee member with a potential conflict of interest to recuse himself from the vote? 

Edited by asman
accuracy

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8 minutes ago, GockeS said:

my question, if Dake and JB both medal

WHO gets the advantage at 74?

they can't both get a bye to the finals...

Non Olympic weight medalists  get a bye to the challenge tournament semis 

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4 hours ago, scribe said:

USAW has dicked Dake repeatedly in the past when he tried making the world team and recently dicked Yianni. Dake is wired to not lose anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he wasn't taking a total binary position with USAW.

What year did USAW unfairly disadvantage Dake in particular? As far as I know, USAW has never altered their procedures to hurt him.

As far as Dake potentially being better than JB during the 2013, 2015, or 2017 seasons, I do not think such a belief is based on the facts. Here are the facts:

2013

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals; 5th place at the Golden Grand Prix
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Sargsyan champ

2015

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Pan Am champ

2017

  • JB earned a bye to the WTT finals by winning the US Open. Dake had the same opportunity but lost to JB at the US Open. JB then beat Dake two out of three times at the WTT Finals. I don't see anything unfair here.

 

 

Edited by Katie

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I like the idea someone mentioned earlier about Dake and Dieringer both entering the tournament and maybe using that as their wrestle-off. Isn't that how some countries do it?

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4 hours ago, pamela said:

I like the idea someone mentioned earlier about Dake and Dieringer both entering the tournament and maybe using that as their wrestle-off. Isn't that how some countries do it?

Wasn't something like this part of the US process 10 or so years ago?  I thought one year there was something in there that gave a returning medalist protection where if they didn't win the trials the national team coach could pick an international tournament for the trials winner and returning medalist to compete in and whichever did better got the spot.  It neither won the trials winner had the spot.  

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8 hours ago, scribe said:

USAW has dicked Dake repeatedly in the past when he tried making the world team and recently dicked Yianni. Dake is wired to not lose anything. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he wasn't taking a total binary position with USAW.

I'm sorry, need a hug?

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On 7/2/2019 at 12:42 PM, Katie said:

This idea that Dake may have been better than JB in 2013, 2015, and/or 2017 is getting ridiculous. 

In 2013 JB got a bye to the WTT finals as a returning medalist. In the finals, he went 2-0 against Dake, including a tech. Not close.

In 2015 JB got a bye to the WTT finals as a returning medalist. In the finals, he went 2-0 against Dake, including a tech. Not close.

In 2017 JB was not a returning medalist. He beat Dake at the US Open to get a bye to the WTT finals. Then he beat Dake two out of three times at the WTTs. There was no question JB was better that year.

Yet this myth that Dake may have been better lives on.

If you can't comprehend that Dake was heavily disadvantaged in 2013 and 2015 (and somewhat less so in 2017), I don't know what to tell you.  Having to beat Andrew Howe and David Taylor, just to wrestle JB that same day, is absurd, and a much bigger disadvantage than Dieringer is now facing.

The most recent data we have, from 2017, suggests two closely matched competitors, and it is by no means clear that JB was the better wrestler.  The Open match was either decided on criteria, or at most a point or two, and controversial as well.  Unless I'm mistaken, Dake once again had to go advance out of a same day challenge tournament to face JB, and all three matches were very close.

And I'm not even sure anyone is claiming Dake was better; I know I'm not.  Personally, I imagine it's about a toss-up, but that's merely my opinion.

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OK - I've tried to read a lot of the posts and I have listened to FRL.

Here's what I have ----

1.  Dake camp and Dieringer camp agreed on a date for when they can wrestle the Final X matches.  This date was informed by a recommendation from a doctor.

2.  There is no rule that states Dake can't wrestle other people before the Final X match. In fact, it sounds like people know Dake is wrestling people in the practice room.  All parties would likely recognize that Dake is likely to wrestle live matches against high quality opponents in preparation for wrestling in the delayed final X match.  No one would expect that Dake's first hard live go would be against Dieringer.  Anyone disagree with this?

3.  Dake has decided to include live matches in Spain at a tournament.  The Tournament is not known for the highest level of competition.  Dake winning or losing at this tournament has no impact on him.  Thus, if he is feeling like things aren't right or the injury shouldn't be challenged he can simply injury default or simply not continue in the tournament.  He can treat this like exhibition matches if he wants.   Similar to live goes in the practice room.   He can likely go at a different, lower, speed and intensity than what he will need to do vs Dieringer. 

4.  Some in USA wrestling didn't want Dake to be able to compete in live / official matches ahead of Final X given the statements made from Dake's camp regarding his medical condition and when he can wrestle.  However, Dake's camp said that they feel that attempting to prevent Dake from competing would violate the law and they would, if needed, protect Dake's right to compete.  [I did not hear FRL say that they brought lawyers and confronted USA wrestling ... I heard that Dake's camp mentioned the law which they feel is on their side.]

I do get why some are turned off by this at first blush.   But this tournament is not Dogu ... it's like a bunch of exhibition matches for Kyle.  He can test out how his recovery is going and help him peak for Final X.  

Does anyone feel that Dake should not be afforded the ability to peak for the Final X match? 

Should he not be allowed to wrestle anyone live ahead of wrestling Dieringer? 

I bet live goes with Dean, or other practice partners he has, will be a lot harder than a lot of guys he wrestle's in Spain.  Why is it that wrestling some guy in Spain is such a big and bad deal?

I would be curious to see what the original 'doctor's note' said.  Did it say:

1)  Kyle can be ready to compete for final x by August XX (i forget the date) ........ or 

2)  Kyle cannot wrestle in live wrestling matches until August XX

I'm guessing it is more like #1.

Edited by nom

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2 hours ago, whaletail said:

If you can't comprehend that Dake was heavily disadvantaged in 2013 and 2015 (and somewhat less so in 2017), I don't know what to tell you.  Having to beat Andrew Howe and David Taylor, just to wrestle JB that same day, is absurd, and a much bigger disadvantage than Dieringer is now facing.

The most recent data we have, from 2017, suggests two closely matched competitors, and it is by no means clear that JB was the better wrestler.  The Open match was either decided on criteria, or at most a point or two, and controversial as well.  Unless I'm mistaken, Dake once again had to go advance out of a same day challenge tournament to face JB, and all three matches were very close.

And I'm not even sure anyone is claiming Dake was better; I know I'm not.  Personally, I imagine it's about a toss-up, but that's merely my opinion.

The process in 2017 was completely fair. JB won and Dake lost. There's nothing else to say.

As for 2013 and 2015:  Let's not consider their head-to-head results for the moment.

The fact of the matter is Dake did not have any international results those years that would suggest he'd medal at worlds. He placed fifth at the 2013 Golden Grand Prix and did not enter any international tournaments in 2015.

In contrast, JB won multiple major tournaments in both years, and then he actually won world gold both years. So based on actual results, there is no basis to believe that Dake was on JB's level those years.

Dake is a great wrestler, but the facts don't support your viewpoint.

Edited by Katie

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2 hours ago, nom said:

OK - I've tried to read a lot of the posts and I have listened to FRL.

Here's what I have ----

1.  Dake camp and Dieringer camp agreed on a date for when they can wrestle the Final X matches.  This date was informed by a recommendation from a doctor.

2.  There is no rule that states Dake can't wrestle other people before the Final X match. In fact, it sounds like people know Dake is wrestling people in the practice room.  All parties would likely recognize that Dake is likely to wrestle live matches against high quality opponents in preparation for wrestling in the delayed final X match.  No one would expect that Dake's first hard live go would be against Dieringer.  Anyone disagree with this?

3.  Dake has decided to include live matches in Spain at a tournament.  The Tournament is not known for the highest level of competition.  Dake winning or losing at this tournament has no impact on him.  Thus, if he is feeling like things aren't right or the injury shouldn't be challenged he can simply injury default or simply not continue in the tournament.  He can treat this like exhibition matches if he wants.   Similar to live goes in the practice room.   He can likely go at a different, lower, speed and intensity than what he will need to do vs Dieringer. 

4.  Some in USA wrestling didn't want Dake to be able to compete in live / official matches ahead of Final X given the statements made from Dake's camp regarding his medical condition and when he can wrestle.  However, Dake's camp said that they feel that attempting to prevent Dake from competing would violate the law and they would, if needed, protect Dake's right to compete.  [I did not hear FRL say that they brought lawyers and confronted USA wrestling ... I heard that Dake's camp mentioned the law which they feel is on their side.]

I do get why some are turned off by this at first blush.   But this tournament is not Dogu ... it's like a bunch of exhibition matches for Kyle.  He can test out how his recovery is going and help him peak for Final X.  

Does anyone feel that Dake should not be afforded the ability to peak for the Final X match? 

Should he not be allowed to wrestle anyone live ahead of wrestling Dieringer? 

I bet live goes with Dean, or other practice partners he has, will be a lot harder than a lot of guys he wrestle's in Spain.  Why is it that wrestling some guy in Spain is such a big and bad deal?

I would be curious to see what the original 'doctor's note' said.  Did it say:

1)  Kyle can be ready to compete for final x by August XX (i forget the date) ........ or 

2)  Kyle cannot wrestle in live wrestling matches until August XX

I'm guessing it is more like #1.

I believe the problem arises from Dake’s First doctor note stating he can’t compete until August. After they set the date of the event he then brought forth a second note changing the date he can compete. 

I don’t see how others don’t see this as a problem, if this is indeed what happened. If they just randomly selected August 17th and he competed prior to it then there isn’t a problem. 

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9 hours ago, whaletail said:

If you can't comprehend that Dake was heavily disadvantaged in 2013 and 2015 (and somewhat less so in 2017), I don't know what to tell you.  Having to beat Andrew Howe and David Taylor, just to wrestle JB that same day, is absurd, and a much bigger disadvantage than Dieringer is now facing.

The most recent data we have, from 2017, suggests two closely matched competitors, and it is by no means clear that JB was the better wrestler.  The Open match was either decided on criteria, or at most a point or two, and controversial as well.  Unless I'm mistaken, Dake once again had to go advance out of a same day challenge tournament to face JB, and all three matches were very close.

And I'm not even sure anyone is claiming Dake was better; I know I'm not.  Personally, I imagine it's about a toss-up, but that's merely my opinion.

It’s not a toss up. JB beat him to make the team 3 times. How can that be called a toss up? 

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8 hours ago, nom said:

OK - I've tried to read a lot of the posts and I have listened to FRL.

Here's what I have ----

1.  Dake camp and Dieringer camp agreed on a date for when they can wrestle the Final X matches.  This date was informed by a recommendation from a doctor.

2.  There is no rule that states Dake can't wrestle other people before the Final X match. In fact, it sounds like people know Dake is wrestling people in the practice room.  All parties would likely recognize that Dake is likely to wrestle live matches against high quality opponents in preparation for wrestling in the delayed final X match.  No one would expect that Dake's first hard live go would be against Dieringer.  Anyone disagree with this?

3.  Dake has decided to include live matches in Spain at a tournament.  The Tournament is not known for the highest level of competition.  Dake winning or losing at this tournament has no impact on him.  Thus, if he is feeling like things aren't right or the injury shouldn't be challenged he can simply injury default or simply not continue in the tournament.  He can treat this like exhibition matches if he wants.   Similar to live goes in the practice room.   He can likely go at a different, lower, speed and intensity than what he will need to do vs Dieringer. 

4.  Some in USA wrestling didn't want Dake to be able to compete in live / official matches ahead of Final X given the statements made from Dake's camp regarding his medical condition and when he can wrestle.  However, Dake's camp said that they feel that attempting to prevent Dake from competing would violate the law and they would, if needed, protect Dake's right to compete.  [I did not hear FRL say that they brought lawyers and confronted USA wrestling ... I heard that Dake's camp mentioned the law which they feel is on their side.]

I do get why some are turned off by this at first blush.   But this tournament is not Dogu ... it's like a bunch of exhibition matches for Kyle.  He can test out how his recovery is going and help him peak for Final X.  

Does anyone feel that Dake should not be afforded the ability to peak for the Final X match? 

Should he not be allowed to wrestle anyone live ahead of wrestling Dieringer? 

I bet live goes with Dean, or other practice partners he has, will be a lot harder than a lot of guys he wrestle's in Spain.  Why is it that wrestling some guy in Spain is such a big and bad deal?

I would be curious to see what the original 'doctor's note' said.  Did it say:

1)  Kyle can be ready to compete for final x by August XX (i forget the date) ........ or 

2)  Kyle cannot wrestle in live wrestling matches until August XX

I'm guessing it is more like #1.

If he said he can’t go until August 17th, no, he should not be able to wrestle matches overseas. 

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9 hours ago, nom said:

OK - I've tried to read a lot of the posts and I have listened to FRL.

Here's what I have ----

1.  Dake camp and Dieringer camp agreed on a date for when they can wrestle the Final X matches.  This date was informed by a recommendation from a doctor.

2.  There is no rule that states Dake can't wrestle other people before the Final X match. In fact, it sounds like people know Dake is wrestling people in the practice room.  All parties would likely recognize that Dake is likely to wrestle live matches against high quality opponents in preparation for wrestling in the delayed final X match.  No one would expect that Dake's first hard live go would be against Dieringer.  Anyone disagree with this?

3.  Dake has decided to include live matches in Spain at a tournament.  The Tournament is not known for the highest level of competition.  Dake winning or losing at this tournament has no impact on him.  Thus, if he is feeling like things aren't right or the injury shouldn't be challenged he can simply injury default or simply not continue in the tournament.  He can treat this like exhibition matches if he wants.   Similar to live goes in the practice room.   He can likely go at a different, lower, speed and intensity than what he will need to do vs Dieringer. 

4.  Some in USA wrestling didn't want Dake to be able to compete in live / official matches ahead of Final X given the statements made from Dake's camp regarding his medical condition and when he can wrestle.  However, Dake's camp said that they feel that attempting to prevent Dake from competing would violate the law and they would, if needed, protect Dake's right to compete.  [I did not hear FRL say that they brought lawyers and confronted USA wrestling ... I heard that Dake's camp mentioned the law which they feel is on their side.]

I do get why some are turned off by this at first blush.   But this tournament is not Dogu ... it's like a bunch of exhibition matches for Kyle.  He can test out how his recovery is going and help him peak for Final X.  

Does anyone feel that Dake should not be afforded the ability to peak for the Final X match? 

Should he not be allowed to wrestle anyone live ahead of wrestling Dieringer? 

I bet live goes with Dean, or other practice partners he has, will be a lot harder than a lot of guys he wrestle's in Spain.  Why is it that wrestling some guy in Spain is such a big and bad deal?

I would be curious to see what the original 'doctor's note' said.  Did it say:

1)  Kyle can be ready to compete for final x by August XX (i forget the date) ........ or 

2)  Kyle cannot wrestle in live wrestling matches until August XX

I'm guessing it is more like #1.

This is probably the most reasonable argument in Dake’s favor.  I agree, wrestling live matches in practice probably wouldn’t be much different than wrestling in the tournament in Spain.  However, it’s just the fact of wrestling “official” matches is what rubs people the wrong way, and is apparently what the committee originally wanted to prevent from happening.

Obviously we don’t know what the note says, but I’d agree with what Regulator wrote above, I’d guess the original note likely just said “compete” and did not include “for Final X.”   

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18 hours ago, Katie said:

What year did USAW unfairly disadvantage Dake in particular? As far as I know, USAW have never altered their procedures to hurt him.

As far as Dake potentially being better than JB during the 2013, 2015, or 2017 seasons, I do not think such a belief is based on the facts. Here are the facts:

2013

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals; 5th place at the Golden Grand Prix
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Sargsyan champ

2015

  • Dake: 0-2 vs. JB (including a tech) at the WTT finals
  • JB: 2-0 vs. Dake (including a tech) at the WTT finals; World champ; Medved champ; Pan Am champ

2017

  • JB earned a bye to the WTT finals by winning the US Open. Dake had the same opportunity but lost to JB at the US Open. JB then beat Dake two out of three times at the WTT Finals. I don't see anything unfair here.

 

 

The committee wants the best wrestlers at worlds and wants to limit fluke team reps resulting from injury or timing. We can detail the finer points of the right way to go about it all. Russia at least used to just hand picks them, and the results always seem to bear out. 

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Thanks for the responses above.  And I do understand how the optics look.

I am curious whether the note said Dake cannot wrestle, period, until Aug 17.  I doubt this.  If this is the case he could not possibly be ready to wrestle at final X at that time.  He’d clearly need more time to get ready.

On the comment that he should not be allowed to wrestle overseas ... I’d like to explore the logic here.  I’m curious.  Let’s progress through some steps I think are fair.

Based on your thinking  ... for each of these, should Dake be  allowed to do it before Aug 17?

1. Is Dake allowed to wrestle for 1 minute stretches, live, in Ithaca?

2.  Can he wrestle a full match live in Ithaca - knowing he can quit if needed to avoid aggravating injury?

3.  Can he travel to another state and wrestler a full match live?

4.  Can he bring on practice partners and wrestle a full match live?

5.  Could he set up his own mini tournament in the U.S. to get a feel for multiple matches - again recognizing he could protect his injury as needed?

6.  If this existed, could he wrestle at an actual tournament in the US given he hasn’t competed for a while and needs to shake the ‘rust off’ - recognizing that he can quit at any point to protect injury.

7.  Could he wrestle live goes with a partner in Canada?

8.  Could he do #6 but in another country?

 

I’m trying to use logic and facts to understand why him being allowed to go live in the practice room (while dealing with the need to heal and not aggravate an injury) is different than going live in an ‘official’ competition that means nothing and still affords him the ability to have options related to his injury.  

If the issue is that it is overseas - I do not know of the logic that would put the line there. 

 

 

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So two big questions I have (and I don’t know if anyone on here has the factual answers to):  1) Did the original note say he cannot compete until August 17th, or the doctor recommended a date of Aug17 for the series?  Very big difference between the two. 2) Did the Dake camp lawyer up, as people have been claiming and tearing them down for, or did they just bring up the fact it would be unlawful to block him from competing? Again, very big difference between the two. 

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If possible Dake wants to be in peak form for the wrestle off. There is a difference between the medical clearance point of time to wrestle and ready to compete point of time. They don't occur at the same time. As long as there is sufficient time before the worlds, Dake has earned the right to be ready to go.

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16 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So two big questions I have (and I don’t know if anyone on here has the factual answers to):  1) Did the original note say he cannot compete until August 17th, or the doctor recommended a date of Aug17 for the series?  Very big difference between the two. 2) Did the Dake camp lawyer up, as people have been claiming and tearing them down for, or did they just bring up the fact it would be unlawful to block him from competing? Again, very big difference between the two. 

I think I just repeated your post.

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Nobody knows exactly what the doctor's note said but people are making it sound like it said "Kyle Dake must be kept in a cushioned jewelry box until August 17."  I assume what the note said how long it would take to recover from the injury, but that's not the same thing as returning to competition fitness. USA Wrestling would factor in the combination of convalescence AND training time when choosing the Final X date with Dieringer. The competition in Spain for Dake is training. The competition in Yasar Dogu for Dieringer isn't just training: if he beats Dake, he needs it for seeding. Regardless of Dake's recovery schedule, Ringer was going to Yasar Dogu unless Dake chose that weekend for the wrestle-off.

As to the Dake - JB back-and-forth, Dake lost to JB under the rules in place at the time, and while they favor people with prior success, them's the breaks. JB beat him straight up in 2017. The real career bummer was when Dake ducked JB and Cox beat him anyway. I still think Dake thought that would be a cakewalk and in underestimating Cox, lost a match he absolutely should have won. Since that match, Cox has only improved and now if I were going to duck one of them, I'd duck Cox instead of Burroughs.

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