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MSU158

Askren.......OUCH!

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7 minutes ago, Katie said:

If the different categories of homicide were all that existed in the entirety of criminal and civil law, your statements about intent would make some sense. But that is not the case. 

So, your rationale to inaccurately argue is due to my only using one criminal example to describe degrees of a crime based on intent?  So, robbing someone at gunpoint vs. accidentally not paying for a pack of gum because the grocer didn't ring it up are not differentiated by intent?  Rape by kidnapping someone, torturing them and doing it fully against their will vs. a 16 year old having sex with a fully willing 15 year old is not differentiated by intent?  How about 2 15 year olds?

Methinks you are just being "intentionally" obtuse in this case...........

 

Edited to add:  Hell, even speeding is open to interpretation based on intent.  Tell a cop or even a judge you were drag racing you will be lucky you don't get thrown in jail on top of the ticket.  Tell them you were trying your hardest to speed safely while driving your pregnant wife to the hospital because her water broke and you will likely just pay a fine or maybe even get off.  Pretty sure "intent" applies across the board to ANYONE that interprets and/or enforces Law.........

Edited by MSU158

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These 2 legal definitions should end this ridiculous debate:

 

Definition of Criminal Intent: Criminal intent is a necessary component of a “conventional” crime and involves a conscious decision on the part of one party to injure or deprive another.

 

  1. Intention (criminal law) In criminal law, intent is one of three general classes of mens rea necessary to constitute a conventional, as opposed to strict liability, crime. A more formal, generally synonymous legal term is scienter: intent or knowledge of wrongdoing.

     

    Even strict liability crimes are tiered specifically due to intent.  Selling to a minor may be criminal, but the degree of punishment still would be determined based on proving intent.

     

     

Edited by MSU158

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38 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

These 2 legal definitions should end this ridiculous debate:

 

Definition of Criminal Intent: Criminal intent is a necessary component of a “conventional” crime and involves a conscious decision on the part of one party to injure or deprive another.

 

  1. Intention (criminal law) In criminal law, intent is one of three general classes of mens rea necessary to constitute a conventional, as opposed to strict liability, crime. A more formal, generally synonymous legal term is scienter: intent or knowledge of wrongdoing.

     

     

Aside from those definitions correctly suggesting that intent is an element of many crimes, how do they prove that “intent is one of, if not the most important aspects of law”?

You realize that criminal law is just one branch of the law, right? 

Edited by Katie

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I really like Askren's response on the outcome of his fight.  

Made no excuses and accepts the loss and does not dwell on it.  Also commends Masvidal on the technique and strategy. 

Also some great insight on suffering and failures in life. 

I am not a fan of his trash talking but his character after this loss and taking the time to give an interview 2 days after the fight shows me why he has been and will continue to be successful on whatever he does.   

 

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I’m a casual fan of MMA, and I admit that I don’t know what I don’t know about the sport  

While I think he has limited upside potential in the UFC, I don’t think this particular loss indicates anything more than he got hit with a perfectly-timed knee to his head. 

It’s not like he got tired, or outclassed by a better striker; he simply walked right into his opponent’s move. 

I hope he’s ok and decides it’s time to teach and coach vice compete, in any sport.

i think he can have a very positive impact on the sport of wrestling in this regard.

 

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On 7/8/2019 at 12:54 PM, MSU158 said:

Again, I am not saying that MMA fighters are not highly susceptible to CTE.  I just pointed out STRONG numbers that show the amount of collisions creating brain trauma that NFL linemen take dwarfs what an MMA fighter would see in the same time span.

Now, boxing, I admit could challenge this, but even boxers only fight 1-2 times per year and usually spar with heavy gloves and headgear.  While in a fight, the odds are better they take more powerful shots, more often, but that amount over the course of a year most likely falls WAY short of the average NFL player.........

Heavier gloves lead to worse brain trauma.  You are adding a pound of weight to each fist.  The heavier gloves protect the hand...  and make blows to the head worse (at least for sub-concussive trauma)

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15 hours ago, sisi said:

I really like Askren's response on the outcome of his fight.  

Made no excuses and accepts the loss and does not dwell on it.  Also commends Masvidal on the technique and strategy. 

Also some great insight on suffering and failures in life. 

I am not a fan of his trash talking but his character after this loss and taking the time to give an interview 2 days after the fight shows me why he has been and will continue to be successful on whatever he does.   

 

Askren is a good guy, for sure.

Edited by Katie

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13 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Heavier gloves lead to worse brain trauma.  You are adding a pound of weight to each fist.  The heavier gloves protect the hand...  and make blows to the head worse (at least for sub-concussive trauma)

Exactly. Subconcussive trauma is a huge factor in CTE and that’s basically what boxing is all about. 

I would never recommend MMA or boxing to anyone. That said, I would guess that boxing is worse for brain health. 

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Sport, violent or not, will remain in this country as a competitive extension of the USA's history of continuous world warring, or its preparation, declared or not. Kill and maim are ok when legal. 

Morality is a much higher standard that deals w/potential. Loss of life/ brain power is loss of potential. Moral and ethical are the top line; legal is the (immoral) bottom line. So much that's immoral is ok legally. We're a bottom line society, obviously. And the flip side is money,  more precisely, no guaranteed income; at least enough to prevent the need for a quick buck by having to sticking your neck out in so many different ways.

The organizers don't fight, their suckers do. Francis McDormandt's last line in Fargo, "...and for what, a little money." 

 

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11 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

Heavier gloves lead to worse brain trauma.  You are adding a pound of weight to each fist.  The heavier gloves protect the hand...  and make blows to the head worse (at least for sub-concussive trauma)

Only up to a point. The 16 oz gloves you use to train are definitely used to protect both hands and head. 

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5 hours ago, wrestlingnerd said:

Only up to a point. The 16 oz gloves you use to train are definitely used to protect both hands and head. 

Heavier gloves may actually make subconcussive head trauma worse. That would be my bet, anyway. 

(EDIT: To clarify, I am saying that heavier gloves allow for more blows to the head. That, in turn, means they allow for more subconcussive head trauma.)

Edited by Katie

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Do you mean that heavier gloves have a stronger impact or just cause more blows to the head because there are fewer knockouts? 

Obviously the lighter gloves hit with more impact (despite the weight difference). 

I don’t think the statement that many subconcussive hits is worse than a few knockouts has been proven in any measurable way (despite MMA enthusiasts repeating it). The damage of a concussion is significant and even a single concussion can lead to lasting brain damage.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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6 hours ago, Billyhoyle said:

Do you mean that heavier gloves have a stronger impact or just cause more blows to the head because there are fewer knockouts? 

Obviously the lighter gloves hit with more impact (despite the weight difference). 

I don’t think the statement that many subconcussive hits is worse than a few knockouts has been proven in any measurable way (despite MMA enthusiasts repeating it). The damage of a concussion is significant and even a single concussion can lead to lasting brain damage.  

Heavier gloves allow for more blows to the head. That, in turn, means they allow for more subconcussive head trauma. 

There is a recent study showing evidence of CTE in brains that had only been exposed to subconcussive head trauma. The finding suggests that CTE is caused by blows to the head, including those that lead to concussions (rather than by those that lead to concussions alone).

Edited by Katie

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32 minutes ago, Katie said:

Heavier gloves allow for more blows to the head. That, in turn, means they allow for more subconcussive head trauma. 

There is a recent study showing evidence of CTE in brains that had only been exposed to  subconcussive head trauma. The finding  suggests that CTE is caused by blows to the head, including those that lead to concussions (rather than by those that lead to concussions alone).

I don’t doubt that subconcussive blows also lead to CTE. There’s no evidence though that these are worse than concussive blows. 

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5 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

I don’t doubt that subconcussive blows also lead to CTE. There’s no evidence though that these are worse than concussive blows. 

I don’t believe I said subconcussive blows were worse than concussive blows. 

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5 hours ago, AHamilton said:

Heavier gloves lead to worse brain trauma.  You are adding a pound of weight to each fist.  The heavier gloves protect the hand...  and make blows to the head worse (at least for sub-concussive trauma)

This cannot be true., unless the speed of the blow is unaffected by the heavier gloves.  I guess maybe that is the case? Can humans throw a punch at the same speed with boxing gloves and MMA gloves? I don't pretend to know enough about brain trauma, but simple logic says you can throw a baseball farther than a softball, i.e. Impart greater kinetic energy to the ball. The extra padding "protect the hand" is only relative, since the hand is more fragile than the skull.  Is the material science behind gloves advanced where it actually cushions more on one side of the collision than the other?  Is that even possible?

 

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18 minutes ago, tigerfan said:

This cannot be true., unless the speed of the blow is unaffected by the heavier gloves.  I guess maybe that is the case? Can humans throw a punch at the same speed with boxing gloves and MMA gloves? I don't pretend to know enough about brain trauma, but simple logic says you can throw a baseball farther than a softball, i.e. Impart greater kinetic energy to the ball. The extra padding "protect the hand" is only relative, since the hand is more fragile than the skull.  Is the material science behind gloves advanced where it actually cushions more on one side of the collision than the other?  Is that even possible?

 

You can get hit way more times with 16 oz gloves than 4 oz gloves.  Wayyyy more repetitive trauma.  Also the weight and size of the fist is increased.

MMA DOES have the powerful kicks, knees and elbows though... (has any boxer ever hit as hard as full speed running Masdival flying knee?)

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12 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

You can get hit way more times with 16 oz gloves than 4 oz gloves.  Wayyyy more repetitive trauma.  Also the weight and size of the fist is increased.

MMA DOES have the powerful kicks, knees and elbows though... (has any boxer ever hit as hard as full speed running Masdival flying knee?)

Newton was around before the late 18th century, so you don't have an excuse for this ahamilton.  There is much more force impacted on a brain from a 4oz glove than a 16 oz glove.  The weight may be less, but 1/2mv^2 is the kinetic energy, and most importantly the material of the 4oz glove is less soft than the 16 oz glove (less of the energy from the collision is absorbed by the glove).  Lastly, pressure= force/area so the force impacted on the brain from the smaller glove is greater because it is centered over a smaller area rather than spread across the larger 16 oz glove.

 

In terms of repetitive trauma, you are correct.  But there is no evidence that repetitive sub-concussive impact trauma is worse than a single devastating concussion.  While both can lead to CTE, it can take months to recover from a serious concussion.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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I think the little blows added up over time are what they are blaming for a lot of CTE.  It is very difficult to measure this stuff, but I am agreeing with what a lot of the medical professionals have said.  Boxers, who use bigger gloves, get hit a LOT more in training and practice than MMA guys.  

2 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

Newton was around well before 1776, so you don't have an excuse for this.  There is much more force impacted on a brain from a 4oz glove than a 16 oz glove.  The weight may be less, but 1/2mv^2 is the kinetic energy, and most importantly the material of the 4oz glove is less soft than the 16 oz glove (less of the energy from the collision is absorbed by the glove).  Lastly, pressure= force/area so the force impacted on the brain from the smaller glove is greater because it is centered over a smaller area rather than spread across the larger 16 oz glove.

 

In terms of repetitive trauma, you are correct.  But there is no evidence that repetitive sub-concussive impact trauma is worse than a single devastating concussion.  While both can lead to CTE, it can take months to recover from a serious concussion.  

 

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13 minutes ago, AHamilton said:

I think the little blows added up over time are what they are blaming for a lot of CTE.  It is very difficult to measure this stuff, but I am agreeing with what a lot of the medical professionals have said.  Boxers, who use bigger gloves, get hit a LOT more in training and practice than MMA guys.  

 

Please show me one study that shows smaller hits over time are worse than getting knocked out.  Not some PR claim produced by UFC, but an actual medical study.  If such a study does not exist, how can anybody make the claim that smaller repetitive hits are worse? Also, it's not as if UFC guys aren't also taking these small hits as well.  You are arguing a point that has no evidence and is moot anyway since UFC fighters take both massive and mild head trauma throughout their training/career.  

Edited by Billyhoyle

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1 minute ago, Billyhoyle said:

Please show me one study that shows smaller hits over time are worse than getting knocked out.  Not some PR claim produced by UFC, but an actual medical study.  If such a study does not exist, how can anybody make the claim that smaller repetitive hits are worse? Also, it's not as if UFC guys aren't also taking these small hits as well.  You are arguing a point that has no evidence and is moot anyway since UFC fighters take both massive and mild head trauma throughout their training/career.  

Easyyyy nowww Dr. Biily.... I'm just saying ...

You may have your own theories.  The truth is the doctors do not know what exactly causes CTE, but it seems as repetitive sub-concussive trauma is a MAJOR issue. How that compares to a few concussions over a career?  No one knows.  Not sure why you are coming at me so hard?

Anyway, this is an interesting journal article by some guy named Dr. Bennet Omalu, talking largely abour Mike WEbster who had very few recorded concussions:

https://academic.oup.com/neurosurgery/article-abstract/59/5/1086/2559104?redirectedFrom=fulltext

Also: MMA guys don't spend all their time sparring stand-up, boxers do.  Therefore, MMA guys take fewer hits to the head in fights and training over the course of their career.  Especially guys who come from grappling disciplines.

 

P.S. Where is your medical degree from?

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On 7/8/2019 at 5:02 PM, MSU158 said:

Hell, even speeding is open to interpretation based on intent.  

...

Pretty sure "intent" applies across the board to ANYONE that interprets and/or enforces Law.........

Speeding is a general intent offense. In other words, no intent is necessary.

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