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Askren.......OUCH!

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4 minutes ago, Katie said:

I can see why pip is on my ignore list. I do not enjoy comments that seem both sensitive and aggressive.

I agree. Maybe he is just new to the forum experience? I mean sometimes the discussion veers off into a completely different direction. Sometimes I love it. Sometimes I dont. When I dont like that direction, I just find a new place to talk or add something significant and try to bring it back to the OP. Demanding that the people stay on topic isn't a good strategy. I will give him a pass as a new poster.

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16 hours ago, Ultimatepip said:

How about you clowns stop clogging this thread with worthless Law and Order horse sh*t. It would be much appreciated. You seem to have this " holier-than-thou now" attitude every time you post. It's a wrestling forum for gods sake!

On themat.com message boards, the posters are represented by two separate yet equally important groups: the trolls who instigate and the elderly who take the bait. These are their stories.....DUN DUN

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On 7/10/2019 at 2:40 PM, russelscout said:

Askren is not quick. He is not explosive. He is strong, flexible and has good technical skill. He maximizes his best skill set at the expense of skills he could never be good at. This is the same thing he did in wrestling. So far it has served him extremely well. Dont let a flash knee become a confirmation bias for you. The moment Ben starts focusing on a good stand-up and not forcing the fight to go where he is dominant is the moment he can no longer compete IMO. 

I get what you are saying and Askren himself made a good case on this issue BUT...

 Askren is breaking a cardinal rule in not only mma but in wrestling.  He is shooting without setting it up,!  How many times have you all who coach youth wrestlers yell during a match "Set it up!".

And this is when it comes only to strictly wrestling where the repercussion is nothing compared to taking a shot without a setup in mma.  We saw the result of that at UFC 239.  

Even Royce Gracie who was a jujitsu specialist back in the day when everyone was only a specialist had that low front shuffle kick set up before attempting to take his opponent down.  

Ben is gonna have to adjust and adapt from this loss, if he don't , same result will happen.  

 

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7 hours ago, Katie said:

I can see why pip is on my ignore list. I do not enjoy comments that seem both sensitive and aggressive.

Sorry my comments dont follow your far left authoritarian view, you ignore me because I expose you for what you are. You advocate people getting banned because they don't agree with you. You think your the most intelligent person here. We all know that's a farce. Stay in your own lane, which is the opposite of reality.

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On 7/10/2019 at 2:40 PM, russelscout said:

Askren is not quick. He is not explosive. He is strong, flexible and has good technical skill. He maximizes his best skill set at the expense of skills he could never be good at. This is the same thing he did in wrestling. So far it has served him extremely well. Dont let a flash knee become a confirmation bias for you. The moment Ben starts focusing on a good stand-up and not forcing the fight to go where he is dominant is the moment he can no longer compete IMO. 

He had time to develop striking and standup ten years ago when he was fighting bums at the Holiday Inn at Columbia, MO. He chose to stick with wrestling a skill set he had already developed very well and got complacent with being a one dimensional fighter. It's too late in the game for him to go back to the drawing board and try to be a muy thai fighter. His wrestling skills got him into the UFC, but based off his two fights that he has had in the organization I will be surprised if he ever gets a title shot or retires with a record over .500 in the UFC.

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1 hour ago, Chet said:

He had time to develop striking and standup ten years ago when he was fighting bums at the Holiday Inn at Columbia, MO. He chose to stick with wrestling a skill set he had already developed very well and got complacent with being a one dimensional fighter. It's too late in the game for him to go back to the drawing board and try to be a muy thai fighter. His wrestling skills got him into the UFC, but based off his two fights that he has had in the organization I will be surprised if he ever gets a title shot or retires with a record over .500 in the UFC.

You are building that entire narrative around 3 seconds of a fight.

Edited by russelscout

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22 minutes ago, russelscout said:

You are building that entire narrative around 3 seconds of a fight.

The problem is that he got knocked out in 3 seconds, so I can see his point.  Nobody who has ever been knocked out as fast as he was ended up with a winning record in the UFC.  

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2 hours ago, Chet said:

His wrestling skills got him into the UFC, but based off his two fights that he has had in the organization I will be surprised if he ever gets a title shot or retires with a record over .500 in the UFC.

Isn’t there a pretty big difference between those 2 things?

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1 minute ago, 1032004 said:

Isn’t there a pretty big difference between those 2 things?

For most fighters in the UFC, yes, but with the amount of $$$ Askren gets paid he is going to only get high ranking fights.  If he wins 2 fights in a row he will probably get a title shot....If he loses another fight or two, he will probably get cut from the UFC.  

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11 minutes ago, Billyhoyle said:

The problem is that he got knocked out in 3 seconds, so I can see his point.  Nobody who has ever been knocked out as fast as he was ended up with a winning record in the UFC.  

What? This was a record wasnt it?

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

The problem is that he got knocked out in 3 seconds, so I can see his point.  Nobody who has ever been knocked out as fast as he was ended up with a winning record in the UFC.  

Quick google search shows Jon Fitch was knocked out in 12 seconds by Johnny Hendricks, yet finished with a 14-3-1 record in the UFC.

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1 hour ago, Billyhoyle said:

For most fighters in the UFC, yes, but with the amount of $$$ Askren gets paid he is going to only get high ranking fights.  If he wins 2 fights in a row he will probably get a title shot....If he loses another fight or two, he will probably get cut from the UFC.  

Fair enough, but seems he probably did help make the UFC some decent money (and press) with the last fight...

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3 hours ago, russelscout said:

You are building that entire narrative around 3 seconds of a fight.

How many times did you watch Ben's interview with Helwani to memorize all his talking points? He has gotten ROCKED in both of his UFC fights. This will continue to happen to him because he is not a striker and never developed a solid stand up game when he was in the Missouri Bush leagues fighting bums at the Columbia Holiday Inn. Most of the elite MMA fighters who were elite wrestlers developed striking and a standup game early on in their MMA careers. Ben did not and it is starting to show in his fighting performances now that he is at the highest level of MMA. For the record I DO NOT advocate for Ben trying to develop a striking game. That ship has sailed. He is going to have to stick with what got him to the UFC. I just DO NOT believe it will be enough for him to win the title. Too many high level strikers in the division for him to handle.

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32 minutes ago, Chet said:

How many times did you watch Ben's interview with Helwani to memorize all his talking points? He has gotten ROCKED in both of his UFC fights. This will continue to happen to him because he is not a striker and never developed a solid stand up game when he was in the Missouri Bush leagues fighting bums at the Columbia Holiday Inn. Most of the elite MMA fighters who were elite wrestlers developed striking and a standup game early on in their MMA careers. Ben did not and it is starting to show in his fighting performances now that he is at the highest level of MMA. For the record I DO NOT advocate for Ben trying to develop a striking game. That ship has sailed. He is going to have to stick with what got him to the UFC. I just DO NOT believe it will be enough for him to win the title. Too many high level strikers in the division for him to handle.

If I were Askren, I would retire. Sparing myself from more head trauma would be my top priority. Askren does not need to fight in order to have a great life.

That said, for my own selfish reasons, I'd like to see Askren fight Maia -- even though Maia is past his prime. That would be one of the few fights I'd pay to see.

Edited by Katie

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1 hour ago, Chet said:

How many times did you watch Ben's interview with Helwani to memorize all his talking points? He has gotten ROCKED in both of his UFC fights. This will continue to happen to him because he is not a striker and never developed a solid stand up game when he was in the Missouri Bush leagues fighting bums at the Columbia Holiday Inn. Most of the elite MMA fighters who were elite wrestlers developed striking and a standup game early on in their MMA careers. Ben did not and it is starting to show in his fighting performances now that he is at the highest level of MMA. For the record I DO NOT advocate for Ben trying to develop a striking game. That ship has sailed. He is going to have to stick with what got him to the UFC. I just DO NOT believe it will be enough for him to win the title. Too many high level strikers in the division for him to handle.

Just once. He won his first fight against a former champ man.  Put your feelings aside. Is that true or false?

It's true, but despite that fact you are ready to try to ridicule me for echoing Ben's statement in one post because it doesnt fit your narrative, although the actual evidence is not really as conclusive as you are framing it to be.

Edited by russelscout

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14 minutes ago, Katie said:

If I were Askren, I would retire. Sparing myself from more head trauma would be my top priority. Askren does not need to fight in order to have a great life.

That said, for my own selfish reasons, I'd like to see Askren fight Maia -- even though Maia is past his prime. That would be one of the few fights I'd pay to see.

2 key words to our problems

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2 hours ago, russelscout said:

Just once. He won his first fight against a former champ man.  Put your feelings aside. Is that true or false?

It's true, but despite that fact you are ready to try to ridicule me for echoing Ben's statement in one post because it doesnt fit your narrative, although the actual evidence is not really as conclusive as you are framing it to be.

I am not arguing that Askren was declared the winner against Lawler, but he got ROCKED! You can't wish that away by saying things like confirmation bias. It's confirmed twice over in matches that Askren has no striking skills. Yes, there is evidence that his one dimensional over reliance on wrestling worked very well for him in the regional circuits, Bellator and One FC. There is also evidence that he takes some pretty big bombs to the head when he goes up against high level strikers in the UFC. If Ben goes back to One FC or Bellator I will sing to a different tune considering the competition, but he ain't and the evidence from the UFC suggests that he is susceptible to getting knocked out.

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1 hour ago, Chet said:

I am not arguing that Askren was declared the winner against Lawler, but he got ROCKED! You can't wish that away by saying things like confirmation bias. It's confirmed twice over in matches that Askren has no striking skills. Yes, there is evidence that his one dimensional over reliance on wrestling worked very well for him in the regional circuits, Bellator and One FC. There is also evidence that he takes some pretty big bombs to the head when he goes up against high level strikers in the UFC. If Ben goes back to One FC or Bellator I will sing to a different tune considering the competition, but he ain't and the evidence from the UFC suggests that he is susceptible to getting knocked out.

So your not arguing that he didnt beat a champ, but there is not evidence that his style can work in the UFC? Gotchya

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45 minutes ago, russelscout said:

So your not arguing that he didnt beat a champ, but there is not evidence that his style can work in the UFC? Gotchya

I'll go after your bait. Lalwer is a past his prime champ and Askren was declared the winner in their match. Can you set your fan girl feelings aside for Askren and recognize that he has taken some massive bombs to the head in his two matches? How much longer do you think Askren will be able to utilize his evidence based best practice gold standard in MMA one dimensional wrestling style whilst he takes bombs to his head? How will he fare against, Usman, Woodley, Covington, Pettis, Till, Thompson, etc? I just don't think he's got much shot against any of the top welterweights in the division with his style.

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11 minutes ago, Chet said:

I'll go after your bait. Lalwer is a past his prime champ and Askren was declared the winner in their match. Can you set your fan girl feelings aside for Askren and recognize that he has taken some massive bombs to the head in his two matches? How much longer do you think Askren will be able to utilize his evidence based best practice gold standard in MMA one dimensional wrestling style whilst he takes bombs to his head? How will he fare against, Usman, Woodley, Covington, Pettis, Till, Thompson, etc? I just don't think he's got much shot against any of the top welterweights in the division with his style.

The thing you are CLEARLY misstating is that he has EVER needed striking skills or that lack of them is why he has taken headshots in the last 2 fights.  What he NEEDS is proper stand up defense and transitioning to grappling.  One thing Ben has always had is a gas tank.  Yet in both matches he rushed forward WIDE OPEN.  Bad strategy got him in trouble in both fights.  NOT bad striking skills.

Now, I do think he is a bit too aged at this point and his UFC fights are numbered.  But, he is still that good on the ground that he CAN beat anyone in that division.  The key is whether or not he can apply the proper game plan and defend against early barrages.  That and whether or not he really, wholeheartedly needs to continue fighting.  If the loss doesn't energize him along the lines of Gable after Owings, I would say retire and focus on making other great wrestlers........

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17 minutes ago, Chet said:

I'll go after your bait. Lalwer is a past his prime champ and Askren was declared the winner in their match. Can you set your fan girl feelings aside for Askren and recognize that he has taken some massive bombs to the head in his two matches? How much longer do you think Askren will be able to utilize his evidence based best practice gold standard in MMA one dimensional wrestling style whilst he takes bombs to his head? How will he fare against, Usman, Woodley, Covington, Pettis, Till, Thompson, etc? I just don't think he's got much shot against any of the top welterweights in the division with his style.

You highly underestimate Askren. Pettis has trained extensively with Askren and has said he will save himself the embarrassment and never fight Ben. Said he’s a “monster.”  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iKMkoXl718s

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2 hours ago, Chet said:

I am not arguing that Askren was declared the winner against Lawler, but he got ROCKED! You can't wish that away by saying things like confirmation bias. It's confirmed twice over in matches that Askren has no striking skills. Yes, there is evidence that his one dimensional over reliance on wrestling worked very well for him in the regional circuits, Bellator and One FC. There is also evidence that he takes some pretty big bombs to the head when he goes up against high level strikers in the UFC. If Ben goes back to One FC or Bellator I will sing to a different tune considering the competition, but he ain't and the evidence from the UFC suggests that he is susceptible to getting knocked out.

But despite getting “rocked” against Lawler, he didn’t really seem close to being knocked out.

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