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1 hour ago, GockeS said:

i see a pattern in your thinking.

when do we see the post where you actually claim to have proof he tried to hurt him?

No  but I have proof he DID hurt him.  Thats enough.

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This stuff about Yianni shouldn’t go to Dogu before the tournament was silly. Now it’s just ridiculous. He has every right to go and zero obligation to anyone not to. Injuries happen. Wasn’t intentional. Could have just as easily happened with any first round opponent. 

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19 hours ago, GockeS said:

the purpose is to help guys on the team... is yanni not on the team?

this whole...only certain guys 'should' go... to me is useless.

we wonder why we aren't good at freestyle... the whole folk kills freco argument...

well, this would be why... we dont have guys going and competing when there are tourneys.

I think EVERYONE that can, should go.

injuries happen.

No Yianni is not on the team. You're ignoring that Dogu is the tournament chosen by the national team to use as a tuneup for worlds. They do this every year. Why would you want another US guy in the bracket that could potentially limit the international feels that the guy who is actually wrestling at worlds gets. Yianni was there because he still believes he has a shot to be the guy. 

You're about 3 years too late on the whole "we aren't good at freestyle because..." thing btw. Newsflash buddy: We're really good at freestyle now. We are the top challenger to the Russians for freestyle supremacy now.

But yes, we should compete overseas as much as possible. But not at the freakin tuneup tournament for our senior reps. The whole point of showing up to Dogu is to try to give our guys as many matches as possible. Instead, Zain got 1 match, not because he was beaten by a European, but because his back up showed up and knocked him out of the tournament. Complete waste at 65 for this year. There are plenty of other tournaments to compete at overseas during this time of year btw. Yianni, or anyone else, could have shown up in Spain with Dake and Josh Rodriguez if they wanted matches. He could also show up to any of the 5-6 big tournaments happening in the next month (Tblisi, Medved, Poland, German Grand Prix, etc...).

And yes, captain obvious, injuries happen. But they're especially frustrating when they happen against your own countryman at the tuneup tournament for the world championships where you're supposed to be getting a feel for international guys and instead you get 1 match against a guy you've seen 3 times in the last couple of months and you're injured now.

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6 hours ago, Lurker said:

This stuff about Yianni shouldn’t go to Dogu before the tournament was silly. Now it’s just ridiculous. He has every right to go and zero obligation to anyone not to. Injuries happen. Wasn’t intentional. Could have just as easily happened with any first round opponent. 

You've added nothing to the conversation. Nobody has said Yianni doesn't have the right to go. It's a question of whether him being there was good for the USA which ended up being an objective no. Zain got 0 tuneup matches and is now injured. Catastrophic result at 65 kg for this trip because the purpose of the trip is to help the guys who will be wrestling at worlds. Now, if Yianni ends up being the guy, then this was good experience for him, but as of now, the only thing that really matters is that Zain didn't get matches and is injured.

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Just now, scribe said:

Yianni is on the team. 

When I say team, I mean the senior reps for the world championships. Yes, he is technically on the national team, but he's not going to be the guy at worlds unless he gets a miracle at this point. Everyone here knew what I meant. Don't be obtuse.

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3 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

You've added nothing to the conversation. Nobody has said Yianni doesn't have the right to go. It's a question of whether him being there was good for the USA which ended up being an objective no. Zain got 0 tuneup matches and is now injured. Catastrophic result at 65 kg for this trip because the purpose of the trip is to help the guys who will be wrestling at worlds. Now, if Yianni ends up being the guy, then this was good experience for him, but as of now, the only thing that really matters is that Zain didn't get matches and is injured.

Actually there were many who said he shouldn't be going/have gone.  But I will fix it for you for the sake of debated accuracy:

"All this whining about Yianni going was silly before, and is ridiculous now."  Better?  Any time one of our good up and comers gets tough senior level international competition...is good for USA.  More experience, more development, more depth in the future.  Injuries are an inherent risk to all.

 Zain got hurt.  It may affect his status at worlds, it may not.  It happens.  Of course it sucks, I hate to see it.  But as a point of argument for why one of our national team members shouldn't compete at an international tournament? Completely disagree.

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

Actually there were many who said he shouldn't be going/have gone.  But I will fix it for you for the sake of debated accuracy:

"All this whining about Yianni going was silly before, and is ridiculous now."  Better?  Any time one of our good up and comers gets tough senior level international competition...is good for USA.  More experience, more development, more depth in the future.  Injuries are an inherent risk to all.

 Zain got hurt.  It may affect his status at worlds, it may not.  It happens.  Of course it sucks, I hate to see it.  But as a point of argument for why one of our national team members shouldn't compete at an international tournament? Completely disagree.

Still haven't added anything. All you've said is that Yianni had the right to go and he did. Both objective facts. Then you said injuries suck but they happen. Again, obvious. The debate is not whether Yianni could go, but whether he should for the sake of Team USA.

I agree that him getting international experience is good for him and the USA in the long run, but he could do that at any of the several other high level tournaments in the next month overseas. The top guy that was supposed to be at Dogu was Bajrang, who he has already wrestled and trained with in New York City. He didn't need to get another feel for Bajrang. If you want him to get a crack at top guys, you should be disappointed he didn't go to Poland to take on Chakaev and Rashidov, two top 5 guys that he hasn't already wrestled. Yianni didn't see anybody on any level this weekend that he couldn't have seen at any of the upcoming tournaments where he wouldn't have been a potential liability to Zain, our actual rep as of now, getting the matches he needs.

It's not a question of whether Yianni can or can't wrestle there. That's obvious. It's about whether his wrestling was good for the team for the upcoming world championships, and given the results, I don't know how you can argue that it wasn't pretty bad for the team. Zain saw no international competition and was injured in the process as a direct consequence of Yianni being there. I would be thrilled if USA guys wrestled internationally more, but I think the tuneup tournament for the world championships should be reserved for the reps to avoid the possibility that played out at Dogu.

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4 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Still haven't added anything. All you've said is that Yianni had the right to go and he did. Both objective facts. Then you said injuries suck but they happen. Again, obvious. The debate is not whether Yianni could go, but whether he should for the sake of Team USA.

I agree that him getting international experience is good for him and the USA in the long run, but he could do that at any of the several other high level tournaments in the next month overseas. The top guy that was supposed to be at Dogu was Bajrang, who he has already wrestled and trained with in New York City. He didn't need to get another feel for Bajrang. If you want him to get a crack at top guys, you should be disappointed he didn't go to Poland to take on Chakaev and Rashidov, two top 5 guys that he hasn't already wrestled. Yianni didn't see anybody on any level this weekend that he couldn't have seen at any of the upcoming tournaments where he wouldn't have been a potential liability to Zain, our actual rep as of now, getting the matches he needs.

It's not a question of whether Yianni can or can't wrestle there. That's obvious. It's about whether his wrestling was good for the team for the upcoming world championships, and given the results, I don't know how you can argue that it wasn't pretty bad for the team. Zain saw no international competition and was injured in the process as a direct consequence of Yianni being there. I would be thrilled if USA guys wrestled internationally more, but I think the tuneup tournament for the world championships should be reserved for the reps to avoid the possibility that played out at Dogu.

This whole debate is bizarre. USAW organized the trip and (I imagine) paid Yianni's way. The Team USA coaches were there. If they had a problem with Yianni wrestling, they would have said so. 

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6 minutes ago, qc8223 said:

Still haven't added anything. All you've said is that Yianni had the right to go and he did. Both objective facts. Then you said injuries suck but they happen. Again, obvious. The debate is not whether Yianni could go, but whether he should for the sake of Team USA.

I agree that him getting international experience is good for him and the USA in the long run, but he could do that at any of the several other high level tournaments in the next month overseas. The top guy that was supposed to be at Dogu was Bajrang, who he has already wrestled and trained with in New York City. He didn't need to get another feel for Bajrang. If you want him to get a crack at top guys, you should be disappointed he didn't go to Poland to take on Chakaev and Rashidov, two top 5 guys that he hasn't already wrestled. Yianni didn't see anybody on any level this weekend that he couldn't have seen at any of the upcoming tournaments where he wouldn't have been a potential liability to Zain, our actual rep as of now, getting the matches he needs.

It's not a question of whether Yianni can or can't wrestle there. That's obvious. It's about whether his wrestling was good for the team for the upcoming world championships, and given the results, I don't know how you can argue that it wasn't pretty bad for the team. Zain saw no international competition and was injured in the process as a direct consequence of Yianni being there. I would be thrilled if USA guys wrestled internationally more, but I think the tuneup tournament for the world championships should be reserved for the reps to avoid the possibility that played out at Dogu.

So basically someone is only adding something if you agree with them? My point about being good for depth and viability for long term USAW doesn’t go with your focal point of September 2019, so it’s irrelevant?   Agree to disagree. I feel there is absolutely positively not a single issue with he or anyone else going. 

If you want me to try to do it another way I can. Zain getting injured by his first round opponent may impact our chances at world’s, and its unfortunate irony that it came against his teammate. However for the long term depth of USAW,  I hope we start to see this more and more. 

I guess it’s a matter of short term thinking vs long term thinking. 

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I think it is really funny how this group still looks at these guys as representing a particular university/college. How is David Taylor considered to be representing PSU? Is James Green still primarily a Nebraska guy? Dake hasn't wrestled for Cornell since March of 2013. These guys are all USA wrestlers and should be supported as such.

Way too much bickering about where they went/go to school.

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

So basically someone is only adding something if you agree with them? My point about being good for depth and viability for long term USAW doesn’t go with your focal point of September 2019, so it’s irrelevant?   Agree to disagree. I feel there is absolutely positively not a single issue with he or anyone else going. 

If you want me to try to do it another way I can. Zain getting injured by his first round opponent may impact our chances at world’s, and its unfortunate irony that it came against his teammate. However for the long term depth of USAW,  I hope we start to see this more and more. 

I guess it’s a matter of short term thinking vs long term thinking. 

The problem with your argument is that you're acting like Dogu is the only international tournament Yianni can wrestle at. There are several other high level tournaments in the next month that he could wrestle at and get the same level or better competition that he got this weekend. I would love to see him at any of the other tournaments for the long term purposes. People would be throwing a fit if Eierman or Demas showed up at Dogu and injured Zain in the first round. That is the functional equivalent. Our senior rep went to a tuneup tournament and was injured, not by an opponent from another country, but by his own teammate. That's a huge unforced error on the part of Team USA.

There's no contradiction in my thinking on this in terms of short term v. long term. In an ideal world, I want US wrestlers at every international tournament. But the tune up for worlds should be about maximizing the benefits of the senior reps. Having other Americans in the bracket potentially limits the amount of exposure the rep gets by reducing the amount of foreigners he wrestle (or in the worst case scenario, injures the rep). There are plenty of other good tournaments we can send our back ups to for long term development. It doesn't have to be all or nothing as you suggest.

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2 hours ago, qc8223 said:

When I say team, I mean the senior reps for the world championships. Yes, he is technically on the national team, but he's not going to be the guy at worlds unless he gets a miracle at this point. Everyone here knew what I meant. Don't be obtuse.

They said the same thing about PD3 and look he's our guy at worlds.

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qc you make reasonable points and you are turning me.  I tend to agree.  Zain getting one look and it being an American kinda sucks.

But I am also thinking about Yianni’s mindset.  He does think he has a shot at his appeal being granted.  He does not know when he might need to wrestle Zain. If he tries for another tourney and he is told he has to wrestle Zain and there is a timing conflict, that would be bad.  He also wants a reasonable gap.  Him aligning himself with Zain’s schedule puts them on equal footing.  

I have not looked up when the other tournaments are.  And Spain likely wasn’t considered tough enough.

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I am not at all acting as if this is the only tournament. And I’m not sure where I suggested all or nothing??  I’m talking about this specific tournament because this is the specific tournament the situation occurred. If it had happened at Poland or Medved, my stance would be exactly the same. You’re kind of more acting as if you know Yianni’s schedule and know he could have just as easily went to one of those tournaments.  You have no idea about that at all but that’s your claim...

I get your point, I do. It’s just my opinion that there should not be any policy limiting anyone of our athletes competition in anything they are eligible and able to compete in. And if that means this type of thing happens every once in awhile, well that sucks and that’s the game, but the more our guys are out there competing the better overall. 

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On 7/13/2019 at 9:45 AM, tbert said:

Cant give rob koll enough credit on this strategy.  Good job. Cant win the spot fairly then injure him.

That's a Bush league accusation it would be like someone saying that Zain defaulted trying to save face from a possible repackage loss.

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9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I am not at all acting as if this is the only tournament. And I’m not sure where I suggested all or nothing??  I’m talking about this specific tournament because this is the specific tournament the situation occurred. If it had happened at Poland or Medved, my stance would be exactly the same. You’re kind of more acting as if you know Yianni’s schedule and know he could have just as easily went to one of those tournaments.  You have no idea about that at all but that’s your claim...

I get your point, I do. It’s just my opinion that there should not be any policy limiting anyone of our athletes competition in anything they are eligible and able to compete in. And if that means this type of thing happens every once in awhile, well that sucks and that’s the game, but the more our guys are out there competing the better overall. 

I don't necessarily disagree with that conclusion. My whole thing is just about frustration. I think Cornell is holding onto something that almost certainly isn't going to happen. Do you think Yianni shows at Dogu if Zain beats him 2-0 without controversy? I certainly don't. There seems to be a somewhat universally recognized code, for lack of a better word, in the US wrestling community not to send reserves to the tuneup tournament because it never happens other than this time that I'm aware of. Yianni was there because he still thinks he can and should be the guy. Obviously, he should be allowed to compete wherever he wants, but at some point in the process I'd hope that programs would take the best interest of Team USA into consideration. I guess that's wishful thinking. Regardless, it was a great weekend for Yianni, who I definitely wish was going to Worlds instead of Zain. 

 

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I think it is really funny how this group still looks at these guys as representing a particular university/college. How is David Taylor considered to be representing PSU? Is James Green still primarily a Nebraska guy? Dake hasn't wrestled for Cornell since March of 2013. These guys are all USA wrestlers and should be supported as such.
Way too much bickering about where they went/go to school.
Tribal mentality. They think wrestling is a team sport. lol

Sent from my moto z3 using Tapatalk

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45 minutes ago, JeanGuy said:

I think it is really funny how this group still looks at these guys as representing a particular university/college. How is David Taylor considered to be representing PSU? Is James Green still primarily a Nebraska guy? Dake hasn't wrestled for Cornell since March of 2013. These guys are all USA wrestlers and should be supported as such.

Way too much bickering about where they went/go to school.

I agree with the way too much bickering about where they went to school. However the guys you mentioned still very much eat, breathe, live, train with their university. And I’m sure they have a hand in when recruiting comes to play. It’s USA on their back and in the standings,  and whatever their club when competing domestically, but many (in particular the guys you mentioned) still very much represent their university. 

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3 hours ago, qc8223 said:

No Yianni is not on the team. You're ignoring that Dogu is the tournament chosen by the national team to use as a tuneup for worlds. They do this every year. Why would you want another US guy in the bracket that could potentially limit the international feels that the guy who is actually wrestling at worlds gets. Yianni was there because he still believes he has a shot to be the guy. 

You're about 3 years too late on the whole "we aren't good at freestyle because..." thing btw. Newsflash buddy: We're really good at freestyle now. We are the top challenger to the Russians for freestyle supremacy now.

But yes, we should compete overseas as much as possible. But not at the freakin tuneup tournament for our senior reps. The whole point of showing up to Dogu is to try to give our guys as many matches as possible. Instead, Zain got 1 match, not because he was beaten by a European, but because his back up showed up and knocked him out of the tournament. Complete waste at 65 for this year. There are plenty of other tournaments to compete at overseas during this time of year btw. Yianni, or anyone else, could have shown up in Spain with Dake and Josh Rodriguez if they wanted matches. He could also show up to any of the 5-6 big tournaments happening in the next month (Tblisi, Medved, Poland, German Grand Prix, etc...).

And yes, captain obvious, injuries happen. But they're especially frustrating when they happen against your own countryman at the tuneup tournament for the world championships where you're supposed to be getting a feel for international guys and instead you get 1 match against a guy you've seen 3 times in the last couple of months and you're injured now.

yes. Yanni is on the team. Him being better and in the room... helps others on the team. Isn't this a TEAM experience?

not too late... there are many who still whine about folk ruining our freeco. This is just another example of people telling others not to take advantage of an easy way to get better.

Actually, from what I am told there is another tuneup... coming up... however, I believe Yanni went b/c of who he thought might be there. Im sorry you dont like it.  

Yes i was upset that they had to wrestle each other... there needs to be some change in bracketing... and yes I actually did mention this before the match... Yanni had no idea he would be matched up first round.

what if zain had gotten hurt at final x? how about DT? in a clown match... i mean come on. 

see ya captain oblivious

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