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Free vs Folk - The great compromise!

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Free and folk divide us like politics, but what if we made a compromise and for Olympic years and use international rules and go freestyle.  I think it would be well received and absolutely produce out best Olympic athletes. 

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I like both styles more now than ever.  I know this will get an eye roll or two, but is it possible to modify our beloved folkstyle rules in a manner that could help us become notably better in freestyle.  Not do away with folkstyle, but more along the line of these suggestions.

Keep edge of mat *Push out* scoring, but still allow 2 points if you are able to score using folkstyle edge of mat rules.

:30 seconds with ability to lock hands around the body and gut or trapped arm gut, etc, or any pin hold imaginable that is legal, but put them up with a r.t. point after :30, unless you put them on their back, but only get an escape if done before :30...but no dropping down on legs or ankles, like the current rules.

Shot clock:  This one worries me a little, but I favor it to the rampant stalling calls of the 80's.

Would these rules make us noticeably better?

 

Edited by Peso

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The current US Senior product is probably the best of ALL TIME!  Yet, we have some vocal guys pushing hard to change collegiate wrestling?  

I just don’t see the NCAA EVER going to an Internationally governed style that can, and has, be seriously altered at the drop of a hat. Can you imagine the ball grab in a dual meet?  

Edited by MSU158

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14 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

The current US Senior product is probably the best of ALL TIME!  Yet, we there are some vocal guys pushing hard to change collegiate wrestling?  

I just don’t see the NCAA EVER going to am Internationally governed style that can, and has, be seriously altered at the drop of a hat. Can you imagine the ball grab in a dual meet?  

Why do you think changing folkstyle scoring rules so they more closely align with current freestyle rules means NCAA has to copy every rule UWW has and ever will have?

I often see this argument made for why the US shouldn't change to freestyle in high school and college and it makes no sense. the NCAA and high school federations will still have complete autonomy and will not be subject to UWW authority, no matter how rules change for anyone.

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30 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

The current US Senior product is probably the best of ALL TIME!  Yet, we have some vocal guys pushing hard to change collegiate wrestling?  

I just don’t see the NCAA EVER going to an Internationally governed style that can, and has, be seriously altered at the drop of a hat. Can you imagine the ball grab in a dual meet?  

The current flux of the US on the internationals stage has everything to do with the developmental program going down on at USOTC and nothing to do with current folkstyle rules. Thank god for Brandon Slay. 

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I'd be for taking a close look at adding one rule change--one point push out. 

I think this makes a big difference in incentivizing action closer to the center which to me is the biggest issue in folkstyle. 

Push out is also an objective rule.  If college refs were more willing to consistently call stalling as they were years ago, there would be more action. But they don't, and are very inconsistent when they do, so the subjectivity is a problem with that approach.  

Some people criticize push out as sumo wrestling but that's a stretch.  It actually incentivizes the opposite -- staying in the center and trying for takedowns. And when they do get to the edge, the top guys show tremendous athleticism in avoiding the push out. 

I'd start with this and see how it works.  If it's ineffective I'd consider getting supplementing by getting rid of overtime (determine by criteria). Again -- incentivizes action and (unlike stalling and passivity/shotclock) is objective, not subjective.  

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It's too bad AGON never really took off, it could actually have become a pretty good hybrid style.

 

(paraphrasing from @tirapell's post here)

PERIODS

Three 3-minute periods. All begin in the neutral position. 1 minute rest between periods.

Starts at 3:00 and counts down to 0:00 each period

Unlimited sudden victory overtime. First score wins, no time limit.

 

NEUTRAL

Takedown = 2pts (but requires control, as in collegiate folkstyle)

Step-out = 1pt (any 2 points of contact by opposing wrestler out-of-bounds)

 

BOTTOM

Escape = 0pts

Reversal = 2pts (collegiate folkstyle control required)

 

TOP

Exposure = 2pts (any exposure past 90 degrees)

Extended exposure = 3pts (similar to folkstyle nearfall, exposure past 90 degrees with control of 2 or more seconds)

Fall = called after 1/2 second

Only the wrestler in control can score exposure points or gain a fall (no defensive or neutral falls)

Offensive wrestler has 30 seconds after TD or reversal to score exposure points or pin before the wrestlers are returned back to neutral

Exposure or reversal restarts the 30-second clock


ETC.

No "same hold" rule. Once a wrestler leaves criteria and is deemed to be able to defend himself, a subsequent exposure can be scored with the same hold.

Locking hands and all holds with a "wrestling purpose" allowed; "wrestling purpose" defined as holds to take down, reverse, turn, or pin your opponent. Holds solely for the purpose of inflicting pain (submission) or chokes are prohibited.

Scoring holds that happen while simultaneously going out-of-bounds from the feet or top/bottom will be scored.

Intentionally leaving the mat area from top/bottom can be penalized 1 point at the referee's discretion.

Yellow card stalling system (like Pride FC)?

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13 minutes ago, drag it said:

I'd be for taking a close look at adding one rule change--one point push out.  

I think this makes a big difference in incentivizing action closer to the center which to me is the biggest issue in folkstyle. 

Push out is also an objective rule.  If college refs were more willing to consistently call stalling as they were years ago, there would be more action. But they don't, and are very inconsistent when they do, so the subjectivity is a problem with that approach.  

Some people criticize push out as sumo wrestling but that's a stretch.  It actually incentivizes the opposite -- staying in the center and trying for takedowns. And when they do get to the edge, the top guys show tremendous athleticism in avoiding the push out.  

I'd start with this and see how it works.  If it's ineffective I'd consider getting supplementing by getting rid of overtime (determine by criteria). Again -- incentivizes action and (unlike stalling and passivity/shotclock) is objective, not subjective.  

I'm all for a step-out rule in college wrestling. It's right in the spirit of folkstyle's "control" philosophy, too. You are rewarded by controlling the center of the mat and controlling your opponent by forcing them out.

Instituting criteria though would be a big mistake. Criteria can confuse even experienced fans and the wrestlers themselves (e.g., J'Den Cox during the Olympics), plus it looks horrible to see someone's arm raised when the score is like, 4-4. Fans prefer clear-cut, outright winners.

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2 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

Why do you think changing folkstyle scoring rules so they more closely align with current freestyle rules means NCAA has to copy every rule UWW has and ever will have?

I often see this argument made for why the US shouldn't change to freestyle in high school and college and it makes no sense. the NCAA and high school federations will still have complete autonomy and will not be subject to UWW authority, no matter how rules change for anyone.

Did you not read the OP’s post?  He clearly stated wrestling freestyle under the international rules.  As such, I wouldn’t see the NCAA going to a style that they wouldn’t even be the one making the rules. 

With that said, I don’t have an issue with experimenting a bit slightly tweaking some rules to align more closely. However, I truly find the current folkstyle rules superior to freestyle and don’t want to see it changed to a sport that barely has a national following. On top of that you would essentially be changing all of the current system to MAYBE help improve the roughly 8 or so guys per 6 weight class that are relevant per 4 year cycle. 

The good Thing for me is that a solid majority agrees with me. High School and younger absolutely isn’t changing and the NCAA isn’t doing more than minor tweaking for the foreseeable future. 

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1 hour ago, drag it said:

I'd be for taking a close look at adding one rule change--one point push out. 

I think this makes a big difference in incentivizing action closer to the center which to me is the biggest issue in folkstyle. 

Push out is also an objective rule.  If college refs were more willing to consistently call stalling as they were years ago, there would be more action. But they don't, and are very inconsistent when they do, so the subjectivity is a problem with that approach.  

Some people criticize push out as sumo wrestling but that's a stretch.  It actually incentivizes the opposite -- staying in the center and trying for takedowns. And when they do get to the edge, the top guys show tremendous athleticism in avoiding the push out. 

I'd start with this and see how it works.  If it's ineffective I'd consider getting supplementing by getting rid of overtime (determine by criteria). Again -- incentivizes action and (unlike stalling and passivity/shotclock) is objective, not subjective.  

I absolutely HATE criteria. It literally goes against what we have been taught since children. Guess what? 4 is equal to 4. How you got to 4 should NOT matter. 5-4 beats 4. 4-4 does not. 

Also, why does the guy that scores a push out at the end when down 4-3 deserve to win? Because he had incentive?  Guess what?  Being down 4-3 with short time left should be ENOUGH incentive by itself.....

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12 hours ago, MSU158 said:

Did you not read the OP’s post?  He clearly stated wrestling freestyle under the international rules.  As such, I wouldn’t see the NCAA going to a style that they wouldn’t even be the one making the rules.

There is no conceivable scenario where the NCAA says they are done having any input in their own ruleset and are just going to adopt the entire rulebook and all future changes from UWW or any other organization. Get real. Any argument predicated on that scenario is not a serious one. 

 
 
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12 hours ago, MSU158 said:

The good Thing for me is that a solid majority agrees with me. High School and younger absolutely isn’t changing and the NCAA isn’t doing more than minor tweaking for the foreseeable future. 

There is a clear trend of younger wrestlers preferring freestyle over folkstyle. especially the elite high school and college wrestlers. they've been exposed to it since they started wrestling and they have goals that involve winning world championships in freestyle. as they grow up and become the leaders and decisions makers of the sport we will eventually see the switch. the resistance to the change will lessen as time goes on. It won't happen soon or overnight but i'd wager we see it in my lifetime at least. 

as for criteria, y'all know that it's currently in the NCAA rulebook? if you don't win after the second set of tiebreakers they go to riding time as the deciding criteria. then they just add a point so people don't spaz out about the score being tied, even those both wrestlers scored the same number of points, and yet someone is still declared a winner. 

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if you don't win after the second set of tiebreakers they go to riding time as the deciding criteria. then they just add a point so people don't spaz out about the score being tied, even those both wrestlers scored the same number of points, and yet someone is still declared a winner. 


Technically, they don’t.

It’s 3-3, TB2, RT:06 Tie score on the board.

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21 minutes ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

there you go. ties in NCAA wrestling. that must be what keeps new fans away!

First of all they go through at least 6 additionally timed OTs to get to that point.

Secondly, each guy is given the choice for the exact same position for the exact same amount of time. They KNOW they are tied and that riding time is the new deciding factor when tied in OT

Third, they don’t decide that 2 takedowns are worth more than 4 escapes or that if you got a stall point to have a “better” 4 points than the other guy in regulation

lastly, my point is that a score that ends tied in regulation is a TIE.  If you want to make different criteria for OT to keep the match from going 20 mins, I can see that, but the OT criteria in DI is NOTHING like the joke that Freestyle currently has.......and I hope you are really, really young with a TON of patience if you expect to see High School wrestling morph into anything closely resemble what freestyle is today, in your lifetime!

 

good day, sir!

 

 

 

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so to summarize, in folkstyle, you can have a tied match for 11 full minutes, then end the match in criteria, and wrestlers are deincentivized from taking risks the entire match because at worst they'll have a 50/50 shot of winning in the final tiebreaker.  

but in freestyle, the only time the score can be tied is in the 90 seconds at the beginning of the match before someone is put on the 30 second activity clock. and then, wrestlers are incentivized to take risks because if the clock runs out, someone is guaranteed to lose. 

so which system is better, the one that incentivizes risks and eliminates ties early, or the one that disincentivizes risk and allows for 11 minutes of ties? seems like an easy choice but it's still a matter of opinion!

 

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On 7/19/2019 at 8:54 PM, Peso said:

I know this will get an eye roll or two, but is it possible to modify our beloved folkstyle rules in a manner that could help us become notably better in freestyle.

 

Better yet, let's modify the rules of freestyle so that we can become notably better at folk style.

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If we switched to only Freestyle/Greco at all levels we would be the most dominant wrestling country in the world without question.
Our greco team would even snag a couple medals.
Doesnt matter though.usa usa usa

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15 hours ago, Peso said:

I can accept freestyle scoring, but that's not how they will score it in two years.  Do I want to change with them will be the question.

 

the NCAA will continue to be able to do whatever it wants with regards to their rules regardless of what UWW or anyone else does with their rules. the NCAA can adopt all, some, or none of the current UWW freestyle rules. if UWW's rules change in the future, the NCAA will continue to have the option of adopting all, some, or none of the new rules. this will be the situation forever. the NCAA will never be forced to do anything that UWW or any other governing body does. 

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5 hours ago, spladle08 said:

If we switched to only Freestyle/Greco at all levels we would be the most dominant wrestling country in the world without question.
Our greco team would even snag a couple medals.
Doesnt matter though.usa usa usa

I agree we would be better but high school and youth participation would suffer and there would be a severe lack of knowledgeable coaches.  This transition could take years to recover numbers wise. Currently only a small percentage participate in international styles and they are the elite for the most part. 

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