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Free vs Folk - The great compromise!

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I agree we would be better but high school and youth participation would suffer and there would be a severe lack of knowledgeable coaches.  This transition could take years to recover numbers wise. Currently only a small percentage participate in international styles and they are the elite for the most part. 
Yeah 100% it would be a massive undertaking. Definitely not "necessary" but it would easily make us the most dominant country in the world. As is though: we are still pretty savage. With a real solid #2 at most weights.

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On 7/20/2019 at 12:10 AM, MSU158 said:

Did you not read the OP’s post?  He clearly stated wrestling freestyle under the international rules.  As such, I wouldn’t see the NCAA going to a style that they wouldn’t even be the one making the rules. 

With that said, I don’t have an issue with experimenting a bit slightly tweaking some rules to align more closely. However, I truly find the current folkstyle rules superior to freestyle and don’t want to see it changed to a sport that barely has a national following. On top of that you would essentially be changing all of the current system to MAYBE help improve the roughly 8 or so guys per 6 weight class that are relevant per 4 year cycle. 

The good Thing for me is that a solid majority agrees with me. High School and younger absolutely isn’t changing and the NCAA isn’t doing more than minor tweaking for the foreseeable future. 

 

6 hours ago, jammen said:

Better yet, let's modify the rules of freestyle so that we can become notably better at folk style.

I like folkstyle better, but freestyle has made changes that help me enjoy it more.  I know others are saying that if we change our rules to more closely mimick freestyle that we won't have to change the rules at a later date.  I kinda laugh at that.  If we change to be similar, we will change when they do, period.  We are not going to go to all that trouble just to create a 3rd option that doesn't match up with either one.  Once we go down that hole, there won't be any turning back.

 

 

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19 hours ago, moose41 said:

I agree we would be better but high school and youth participation would suffer and there would be a severe lack of knowledgeable coaches.  This transition could take years to recover numbers wise. Currently only a small percentage participate in international styles and they are the elite for the most part. 

I don't know that I would agree with that (HS and youth participation would suffer).  I think the main reason a smaller number of youth participate in FS/GR is because there are so many opportunities to compete in folk in AAU and USAW these days.  So....that's all they know.  When I started wrestling at age 7, there were zero opportunities for me to wrestle folk until getting to middle school.  I had probably wrestled 1000 freestyle/greco matches before I ever wrestled folk, just because there wasn't the opportunity to do so.  I'm sure its the same for many in my generation (I'm 45).  If things were the same today, I don't think it would have an effect on our current youth numbers. 

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Given the international styles propensity for change, I think it would be way easier to get UWW to change to make it more viewer friendly and closely align with folkstyle. I propose the following changes:

1. Eliminate the lay and pray defense on bottom. Give 1 point for an escape and remove the automatic return to neutral. This will force the bottom guy to work (more exciting) and give the top guy more opportunity to score as the bottom guy is not doing the lay and pray (also more exciting).

2. Make guys on top keep a turn for say 2 seconds so there is none of this confusion about who turned who. Fans hate the ambiguity that we see in so many matches. Make a person hold the other person down on a turn.

3. Remove criteria in favor of overtime. If there is a concern for matches taking too long, maybe do 1 minute of sudden-death neutral and then move to a top and bottom round.

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9 minutes ago, jdowntown said:

Given the international styles propensity for change, I think it would be way easier to get UWW to change to make it more viewer friendly and closely align with folkstyle. I propose the following changes:

1. Eliminate the lay and pray defense on bottom. Give 1 point for an escape and remove the automatic return to neutral. This will force the bottom guy to work (more exciting) and give the top guy more opportunity to score as the bottom guy is not doing the lay and pray (also more exciting).

2. Make guys on top keep a turn for say 2 seconds so there is none of this confusion about who turned who. Fans hate the ambiguity that we see in so many matches. Make a person hold the other person down on a turn.

3. Remove criteria in favor of overtime. If there is a concern for matches taking too long, maybe do 1 minute of sudden-death neutral and then move to a top and bottom round.

I don't think UWW is going to drastically change the principles, tactics, and techniques of the style the entire world has grown up with the sport to make it more similar to the USA's scholastic style of the sport.  And I doubt there are very many outside the US that would find it more exciting.

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Given the international styles propensity for change, I think it would be way easier to get UWW to change to make it more viewer friendly and closely align with folkstyle. I propose the following changes:
1. Eliminate the lay and pray defense on bottom. Give 1 point for an escape and remove the automatic return to neutral. This will force the bottom guy to work (more exciting) and give the top guy more opportunity to score as the bottom guy is not doing the lay and pray (also more exciting).
2. Make guys on top keep a turn for say 2 seconds so there is none of this confusion about who turned who. Fans hate the ambiguity that we see in so many matches. Make a person hold the other person down on a turn.
3. Remove criteria in favor of overtime. If there is a concern for matches taking too long, maybe do 1 minute of sudden-death neutral and then move to a top and bottom round.
This is my favorite post of all time if you meant it as sarcastically as it read. Highlighting all of the worst aspects of folkstyle and pretending its what you prefer....that deserves a golf clap and tip of the cap.

If somehow you were serious. This is a horrible post and youre a psychopath.

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1 hour ago, jdowntown said:

Given the international styles propensity for change, I think it would be way easier to get UWW to change to make it more viewer friendly and closely align with folkstyle. I propose the following changes:

1. Eliminate the lay and pray defense on bottom. Give 1 point for an escape and remove the automatic return to neutral. This will force the bottom guy to work (more exciting) and give the top guy more opportunity to score as the bottom guy is not doing the lay and pray (also more exciting).

2. Make guys on top keep a turn for say 2 seconds so there is none of this confusion about who turned who. Fans hate the ambiguity that we see in so many matches. Make a person hold the other person down on a turn.

3. Remove criteria in favor of overtime. If there is a concern for matches taking too long, maybe do 1 minute of sudden-death neutral and then move to a top and bottom round.

4. add riding time (more extremely exciting rides)

5. no locking hands (more exciting hand fighting from par terre)

6. everyone wears headgear (more exciting uniforms)

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4 hours ago, jdowntown said:

Given the international styles propensity for change, I think it would be way easier to get UWW to change to make it more viewer friendly and closely align with folkstyle. I propose the following changes:

1. Eliminate the lay and pray defense on bottom. Give 1 point for an escape and remove the automatic return to neutral. This will force the bottom guy to work (more exciting) and give the top guy more opportunity to score as the bottom guy is not doing the lay and pray (also more exciting).

2. Make guys on top keep a turn for say 2 seconds so there is none of this confusion about who turned who. Fans hate the ambiguity that we see in so many matches. Make a person hold the other person down on a turn.

3. Remove criteria in favor of overtime. If there is a concern for matches taking too long, maybe do 1 minute of sudden-death neutral and then move to a top and bottom round.

You said it brother and good post.  The 2 point tilt gets way to foggy and the refs have a hard time seeing/scoring it.  I would also impose only 2 officials just as we do in the NCAA finals which would eliminate probably about 20% of official travel expenses.  I don't say 1/3 expense elimination as I am sure back ups may be needed to give officials a break.

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6 hours ago, Lurker said:

I don't know that I would agree with that (HS and youth participation would suffer).  I think the main reason a smaller number of youth participate in FS/GR is because there are so many opportunities to compete in folk in AAU and USAW these days.  So....that's all they know.  When I started wrestling at age 7, there were zero opportunities for me to wrestle folk until getting to middle school.  I had probably wrestled 1000 freestyle/greco matches before I ever wrestled folk, just because there wasn't the opportunity to do so.  I'm sure its the same for many in my generation (I'm 45).  If things were the same today, I don't think it would have an effect on our current youth numbers. 

Well we have very different experiences.  I’m curious where you live to find a couple hundred FS/GR matches per year before middle school with 0 chances to wrestle folk.  

I live in west central IL and our pre middle schoolers can wrestle in multiple tournaments and Probly get 30 matches + in a season.  At the same time there are 0 FS/GR opportunities at all within 100 miles   Even outside the season.  

There are very few coaches that know anything about the international styles let alone would be considered proficient or even expert.

Im 43 by the way.  

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On 7/21/2019 at 11:07 AM, Jaroslav Hasek said:

the NCAA will continue to be able to do whatever it wants with regards to their rules regardless of what UWW or anyone else does with their rules. the NCAA can adopt all, some, or none of the current UWW freestyle rules. if UWW's rules change in the future, the NCAA will continue to have the option of adopting all, some, or none of the new rules. this will be the situation forever. the NCAA will never be forced to do anything that UWW or any other governing body does. 

Spey, can Flo lead the way here further? FloNats was a great start, can you get other tourneys on board.  USAW should follow suit and make Pre-Post season nats Free/Greco. Post-Season Nationals and Heartland Duals are the biggest PITA for Free/Greco coaches at youth/hs level.

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34 minutes ago, Ching said:

Spey, can Flo lead the way here further? FloNats was a great start, can you get other tourneys on board.  USAW should follow suit and make Pre-Post season nats Free/Greco. Post-Season Nationals and Heartland Duals are the biggest PITA for Free/Greco coaches at youth/hs level.

I will absolutely do everything I can to make wrestling in America more entertaining and marketable. 

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2 hours ago, Jaroslav Hasek said:

I will absolutely do everything I personally think can make wrestling in America more entertaining and marketable 

I admire your gumption, but fixed your quote a bit for you!  With that said, I do respect your opinion, even when I disagree with it!

Edited by MSU158

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14 minutes ago, MSU158 said:

I admire your gumption, but fixed your quite a bit for you!  With that said, I do respect your opinion, even when I disagree with it!

It's not personal though. if criteria made wrestling unentertaining and unmarketable, I would not be in favor of it. if I see enough evidence that this is the case, I'll change what I personally think. so far I only see the opposite, but I only want to push wrestling in the direction that creates a better product and thus raises the value of the sport. 

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On 7/19/2019 at 1:46 PM, Scorenomore said:

Free and folk divide us like politics, but what if we made a compromise and for Olympic years and use international rules and go freestyle.  I think it would be well received and absolutely produce out best Olympic athletes. 

Just FYI they actually did that one year - the NCAAs used Freestyle weights and rules in the 1948 season - I don't know how it went over that year but I do know they never did it again.

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17 hours ago, moose41 said:

Well we have very different experiences.  I’m curious where you live to find a couple hundred FS/GR matches per year before middle school with 0 chances to wrestle folk.  

I live in west central IL and our pre middle schoolers can wrestle in multiple tournaments and Probly get 30 matches + in a season.  At the same time there are 0 FS/GR opportunities at all within 100 miles   Even outside the season.  

There are very few coaches that know anything about the international styles let alone would be considered proficient or even expert.

Im 43 by the way.  

That’s what I mean, the structure is just different than it was 30 years ago. (I’m from Indiana, so basically same neck of the woods. I think that’s a perfect example. When I was a youth, every tournament was FS/GR. USWF/USAW did not even have any folkstyle sanctioning. These days at best they offer all three at a tournament. But this summer I have not seen one local FS/GR tournament. It’s all folkstyle. Granted I’m in Florida now and wrestling not as big here as in the Midwest.

 

I agree the number of youth coaches knowing about the international styles has shrank, but in my opinion that’s because of the shift of focus, and also in USAW starting to up their folkstyle “section” of the organization. 

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On 7/22/2019 at 9:47 AM, spladle08 said:

This is my favorite post of all time if you meant it as sarcastically as it read. Highlighting all of the worst aspects of folkstyle and pretending its what you prefer....that deserves a golf clap and tip of the cap.

If somehow you were serious. This is a horrible post and youre a psychopath.

I guess I am psychopath then.

I get that some people like the international styles, that is great. Have at it. But to try and convince me on the college wrestling board that they are better, more exciting, or should be implemented at the high school or college level? No, my answer is no.

When I hear suggestions that we try to make ourselves more like the international styles, I am going to point out the problems with them. I find it impossibly ironic that anyone can complain about how boring it is watching handfighting on the ground and claim greco is exciting. Again, my answer is no.

Like having a ruleset that changes every year with no consensus on what the rules mean (again there will always be borderline cases, I get that), but the rate in international styles having situations where no one exactly knows what the score should be is just too high. Again my answer is no.

I actually like wrestling where the athletes actually try to get a pin. Crazy, I know when I can instead see "exciting" leg laces and gut wrenches against the almighty lay and pray defense. I prefer the rate of pins in folkstyle.

And yes I think it is an embarrassment to the sport that nearly all top level wrestlers have cauliflower ear because they won't wear simple head gear.

I don't really expect the international styles to change, but I hope some who come on here and ask for folkstyle to change realize there are plenty of problems with the international styles that maybe you ought to worry about first.

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I guess I am psychopath then.
I get that some people like the international styles, that is great. Have at it. But to try and convince me on the college wrestling board that they are better, more exciting, or should be implemented at the high school or college level? No, my answer is no.
When I hear suggestions that we try to make ourselves more like the international styles, I am going to point out the problems with them. I find it impossibly ironic that anyone can complain about how boring it is watching handfighting on the ground and claim greco is exciting. Again, my answer is no.
Like having a ruleset that changes every year with no consensus on what the rules mean (again there will always be borderline cases, I get that), but the rate in international styles having situations where no one exactly knows what the score should be is just too high. Again my answer is no.
I actually like wrestling where the athletes actually try to get a pin. Crazy, I know when I can instead see "exciting" leg laces and gut wrenches against the almighty lay and pray defense. I prefer the rate of pins in folkstyle.
And yes I think it is an embarrassment to the sport that nearly all top level wrestlers have cauliflower ear because they won't wear simple head gear.
I don't really expect the international styles to change, but I hope some who come on here and ask for folkstyle to change realize there are plenty of problems with the international styles that maybe you ought to worry about first.
Im at work so short response here.
Youre just a "vanilla" person.
You dislike cauliflower ear? Ok...
"Lay and pray defense" lol in freestyle with: no overtime, shot clock, and pushout points, stalling is extremely discouraged. And with points more easily accessible, scoring exchanges are more frequent.
Pins are still a thing.
Nobody is claiming greco is exciting.
Mat wrestling is a waste of time. (Do away with it in college)
Dont compare quick techs and folkstyle pins... the bad wrestlers lose quickly, pin or tech, does it matter?
I had so much hope for you.

Sorry for typos blazed through this

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2 hours ago, spladle08 said:

Im at work so short response here.
Youre just a "vanilla" person.
You dislike cauliflower ear? Ok...
"Lay and pray defense" lol in freestyle with: no overtime, shot clock, and pushout points, stalling is extremely discouraged. And with points more easily accessible, scoring exchanges are more frequent.
Pins are still a thing.
Nobody is claiming greco is exciting.
Mat wrestling is a waste of time. (Do away with it in college)
Dont compare quick techs and folkstyle pins... the bad wrestlers lose quickly, pin or tech, does it matter?
I had so much hope for you.

Sorry for typos blazed through this
 

Vanilla is BY FAR the tastiest ice cream flavor there is.  It has withstood the onslaught of flavors that have come and gone and still stands at the forefront.

No one should like cauliflower ear.  I get that it is a badge of honor to a certain subset of people, but even I am happy that my mother made me wear headgear for most of the time.  If you look you can definitely tell, but I am EXTREMELY thankful that it doesn't look like 2 not quite finished mini pancakes, that were beaten with a mallet, were stapled to the sides of my head!

You do realize that bottom in freestyle is LITERALLY lay and pray.  You can actually get cited for defending on bottom.  I am not sure how that has ANYTHING to do with no OT, a shot clock and pushouts.  I don't see how points are more easily accessible, nor scoring exchanges being more frequent.  I would really like to see stats on this and what international competitions are used to compare against what folkstyle competitions to get these numbers.

"Pins are still a thing" should translate into they are still theoretically possible.

Nobody is claiming greco is exciting.  I would hope not.

Mat wrestling is such a major part of wrestling that I can't believe there is anyone that wants it completely gone.  To me that would be like making basketball only shoot from outside the key, football only pass the ball or hockey drop to just 3 on 3.

Don't compare quick techs to folkstyle pins?  Seriously?  Even the best guy can get caught in a trapped arm gut off fighting a takedown and lose a match 10-0 in the 1st when he may very well beat the guy soundly the next time.  Pins from neutral can be similarly flukey, but many falls in DI come from wearing the guy down until the point he just can't stop getting turned.

I hope you enjoy freestyle as much as I enjoy folk.

Typos in no way factored into this exchange!

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1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Vanilla is BY FAR the tastiest ice cream flavor there is.  It has withstood the onslaught of flavors that have come and gone and still stands at the forefront.

No one should like cauliflower ear.  I get that it is a badge of honor to a certain subset of people, but even I am happy that my mother made me wear headgear for most of the time.  If you look you can definitely tell, but I am EXTREMELY thankful that it doesn't look like 2 not quite finished mini pancakes, that were beaten with a mallet, were stapled to the sides of my head! 

You do realize that bottom in freestyle is LITERALLY lay and pray.  You can actually get cited for defending on bottom.  I am not sure how that has ANYTHING to do with no OT, a shot clock and pushouts.  I don't see how points are more easily accessible, nor scoring exchanges being more frequent.  I would really like to see stats on this and what international competitions are used to compare against what folkstyle competitions to get these numbers. 

"Pins are still a thing" should translate into they are still theoretically possible.

Nobody is claiming greco is exciting.  I would hope not.

Mat wrestling is such a major part of wrestling that I can't believe there is anyone that wants it completely gone.  To me that would be like making basketball only shoot from outside the key, football only pass the ball or hockey drop to just 3 on 3.

Don't compare quick techs to folkstyle pins?  Seriously?  Even the best guy can get caught in a trapped arm gut off fighting a takedown and lose a match 10-0 in the 1st when he may very well beat the guy soundly the next time.  Pins from neutral can be similarly flukey, but many falls in DI come from wearing the guy down until the point he just can't stop getting turned. 

I hope you enjoy freestyle as much as I enjoy folk.

Typos in no way factored into this exchange!

Much of this is plain ignorance. Bottom defense is a thing and if you don't work very hard at learning and practicing it, you will get teched very quickly. There are wrestlers that have no interest in trying to turn, but that is the same in folkstyle.

Why do you claim pins don't happen? I bet if you look at Junior and U23 World Trials (the best proxy for NCAA) the fall count is at least comparable.  You can't compare senior international because that is a higher level. High school wrestling is more exciting than college because they have more pins. Actually, I could say, high school wrestling is more exciting than college because there is no riding time.

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Vanilla is BY FAR the tastiest ice cream flavor there is.  It has withstood the onslaught of flavors that have come and gone and still stands at the forefront.
No one should like cauliflower ear.  I get that it is a badge of honor to a certain subset of people, but even I am happy that my mother made me wear headgear for most of the time.  If you look you can definitely tell, but I am EXTREMELY thankful that it doesn't look like 2 not quite finished mini pancakes, that were beaten with a mallet, were stapled to the sides of my head!
You do realize that bottom in freestyle is LITERALLY lay and pray.  You can actually get cited for defending on bottom.  I am not sure how that has ANYTHING to do with no OT, a shot clock and pushouts.  I don't see how points are more easily accessible, nor scoring exchanges being more frequent.  I would really like to see stats on this and what international competitions are used to compare against what folkstyle competitions to get these numbers.
"Pins are still a thing" should translate into they are still theoretically possible.
Nobody is claiming greco is exciting.  I would hope not.
Mat wrestling is such a major part of wrestling that I can't believe there is anyone that wants it completely gone.  To me that would be like making basketball only shoot from outside the key, football only pass the ball or hockey drop to just 3 on 3.
Don't compare quick techs to folkstyle pins?  Seriously?  Even the best guy can get caught in a trapped arm gut off fighting a takedown and lose a match 10-0 in the 1st when he may very well beat the guy soundly the next time.  Pins from neutral can be similarly flukey, but many falls in DI come from wearing the guy down until the point he just can't stop getting turned.
I hope you enjoy freestyle as much as I enjoy folk.
Typos in no way factored into this exchange!
I get off work in 30 and ill be in debate mode. I mis-understood lay and pray. But yeah bottom defense is very important....

I love both styles but just recognize one is exclusive to America and promotes a lot of Non-transferrable qualities/habits.

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I’m going to go ahead and claim Greco is exciting. To each their own. One of my biggest regrets is choosing college over the opportunity to wrestle Greco for Estrella and Air Force.  I find folkstyle the least exciting of the three. But again it’s simply different strokes for different folks. 

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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I’m going to go ahead and claim Greco is exciting. To each their own. One of my biggest regrets is choosing college over the opportunity to wrestle Greco for Estrella and Air Force.  I find folkstyle the least exciting of the three. But again it’s simply different strokes for different folks. 

I respect this. I am glad that there are folks who do enjoy the different styles.

Sorry to soft-hijack the thread. I just sometimes get super frustrated with the "let's change folkstyle to be more like freestyle or drop it entirely" narrative that gets pushed by some. I thought it would be humorous to turn the narrative and see how folks act by suggesting we change freestyle to be more like folkstyle.

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