Jump to content
Scorenomore

Free vs Folk - The great compromise!

Recommended Posts

17 hours ago, Ching said:

Much of this is plain ignorance. Bottom defense is a thing and if you don't work very hard at learning and practicing it, you will get teched very quickly. There are wrestlers that have no interest in trying to turn, but that is the same in folkstyle.

Why do you claim pins don't happen? I bet if you look at Junior and U23 World Trials (the best proxy for NCAA) the fall count is at least comparable.  You can't compare senior international because that is a higher level. High school wrestling is more exciting than college because they have more pins. Actually, I could say, high school wrestling is more exciting than college because there is no riding time.

I started the lay and pray thing so I will defend it: I am not saying that bottom defense is not a thing or that it does not require strength and skill.

But take a step back and ask yourself what the heart of wrestling is. To me it is to work in all situations to control your opponent to improve your position towards the general goal of getting a pin.

Bottom wrestling in freestyle does not work to improve your position. It is literally stalling (intentionally create a situation of no action) so that the rules and ref can improve your position.

Top wrestling in freestyle also slightly contradicts the goal because the focus is on exposure not near fall. People don't get pinned from leg laces and gut wrenches, but they are rewarded at the same level as cradles and halfs.

I accept that people have different understandings of what wrestling is at its core. But the freestyle lovers need to understand that same point. It is great you find leg laces and gut wrenches exciting. But understand that there are others who find them somewhat boring or at least grossly over valued because they are not working towards a pin (which to some is the ultimate goal of wrestling).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, jdowntown said:

I started the lay and pray thing so I will defend it: I am not saying that bottom defense is not a thing or that it does not require strength and skill.

But take a step back and ask yourself what the heart of wrestling is. To me it is to work in all situations to control your opponent to improve your position towards the general goal of getting a pin.

Bottom wrestling in freestyle does not work to improve your position. It is literally stalling (intentionally create a situation of no action) so that the rules and ref can improve your position.

 Top wrestling in freestyle also slightly contradicts the goal because the focus is on exposure not near fall. People don't get pinned from leg laces and gut wrenches, but they are rewarded at the same level as cradles and halfs.

I accept that people have different understandings of what wrestling is at its core. But the freestyle lovers need to understand that same point. It is great you find leg laces and gut wrenches exciting. But understand that there are others who find them somewhat boring or at least grossly over valued because they are not working towards a pin (which to some is the ultimate goal of wrestling). 

5

How are tilts working toward a pin? I've seen more people pinned in a gut wrench than a tilt. And who says you can't half, cradle, or bar (see Steiber's WC run) in freestyle? Again, if you are comparing college folkstyle to international freestyle, they are different levels.

I don't dispute that bottom defense in freestyle is purely a defensive position. I would argue there is more stalling in college top/bottom than freestyle parterre.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Ching said:

Much of this is plain ignorance. Bottom defense is a thing and if you don't work very hard at learning and practicing it, you will get teched very quickly. There are wrestlers that have no interest in trying to turn, but that is the same in folkstyle.

Why do you claim pins don't happen? I bet if you look at Junior and U23 World Trials (the best proxy for NCAA) the fall count is at least comparable.  You can't compare senior international because that is a higher level. High school wrestling is more exciting than college because they have more pins. Actually, I could say, high school wrestling is more exciting than college because there is no riding time.

Yep, you are right.  Plain ignorance.  It's not like I have substantial experience in ALL styles to draw from.  I must just be basing my stance only on what I read on a message board or watch on TV.  You caught me!

Also, I disagree with comparing Junior and U23 to DI wrestling.  DI IS THE APEX of Folkstyle wrestling.  It actually SHOULD be compared to senior level international wrestling.  Most of these DI wrestlers have 15 years plus of folkstyle experience by the time they are Seniors.  The only thing they may lack in comparison to Senior Level Internationally would be the "man factor" that inevitably comes from that 23-33 year old body.  But, by 2-3 years into DI, these guys are about as refined as they can be in Folk.  Granted, you also don't have the rest of the world's very best, but DI Folkstyle is exceptionally good!

Finally, I will disagree strongly that High School is more entertaining because lesser wrestling allows for more sloppy scoring exchanges and falls.   Great wrestling is great wrestling.  Why you need to see more artificially created scoring to be entertained is beyond me.  Hell, Soccer is the #1 sport in the world and scoring is EXCEPTIONALLY hard to come by.  It is NOT needed to make it great!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ching said:

How are tilts working toward a pin? I've seen more people pinned in a gut wrench than a tilt. And who says you can't half, cradle, or bar (see Steiber's WC run) in freestyle? Again, if you are comparing college folkstyle to international freestyle, they are different levels.

I don't dispute that bottom defense in freestyle is purely a defensive position. I would argue there is more stalling in college top/bottom than freestyle parterre.

Darian Cruz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MSU158 said:

Yep, you are right.  Plain ignorance.  It's not like I have substantial experience in ALL styles to draw from.  I must just be basing my stance only on what I read on a message board or watch on TV.  You caught me!

Also, I disagree with comparing Junior and U23 to DI wrestling.  DI IS THE APEX of Folkstyle wrestling.  It actually SHOULD be compared to senior level international wrestling.  Most of these DI wrestlers have 15 years plus of folkstyle experience by the time they are Seniors.  The only thing they may lack in comparison to Senior Level Internationally would be the "man factor" that inevitably comes from that 23-33 year old body.  But, by 2-3 years into DI, these guys are about as refined as they can be in Folk.  Granted, you also don't have the rest of the world's very best, but DI Folkstyle is exceptionally good! 

Finally, I will disagree strongly that High School is more entertaining because lesser wrestling allows for more sloppy scoring exchanges and falls.   Great wrestling is great wrestling.  Why you need to see more artificially created scoring to be entertained is beyond me.  Hell, Soccer is the #1 sport in the world and scoring is EXCEPTIONALLY hard to come by.  It is NOT needed to make it great! 

Thank you for your agreement on the ignorance part. If you want to be recommended readings to get up to speed, let me know. 

I personally wrestle Ching style wrestling. I am the only practitioner but when I compete, it IS THE APEX OF CHING WRESTLING.

I don't think HS is more entertaining, that was a poorly worded absurdism.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Ching said:

How are tilts working toward a pin? I've seen more people pinned in a gut wrench than a tilt. And who says you can't half, cradle, or bar (see Steiber's WC run) in freestyle? Again, if you are comparing college folkstyle to international freestyle, they are different levels.

I don't dispute that bottom defense in freestyle is purely a defensive position. I would argue there is more stalling in college top/bottom than freestyle parterre.

Come on man. Why are there so few cradles in the international styles? Do just a tiny bit of analysis and you will see that the rules of the international styles simply don't encourage pins.

Guys on bottom don't have to do anything and therefore are not obligated to open themselves up at all. That is why 95% of the time when someone gets taken down, boom lay and pray practically every time, no variety, just stall it out for 5 seconds. If they had to say come up to a knee in order to stand up in order to improve their position, hey lookie cradles now become more viable.

I know, I know, par terre is so dull, get them back on the feet ASAP. But it comes at a cost. You may call it boring or stalling, but to me mat wrestling is the soul of the sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jdowntown said:

Come on man. Why are there so few cradles in the international styles? Do just a tiny bit of analysis and you will see that the rules of the international styles simply don't encourage pins.

Guys on bottom don't have to do anything and therefore are not obligated to open themselves up at all. That is why 95% of the time when someone gets taken down, boom lay and pray practically every time, no variety, just stall it out for 5 seconds. If they had to say come up to a knee in order to stand up in order to improve their position, hey lookie cradles now become more viable. 

I know, I know, par terre is so dull, get them back on the feet ASAP. But it comes at a cost. You may call it boring or stalling, but to me mat wrestling is the soul of the sport.

At the 2019 NCAAs, there were 7 falls in the Quarters, Semis, and Finals

At the 2018 U23 Worlds (most comparable age), there were 8 falls in the Quarters, Semis, and Finals

BTW: the argument that the NCAA D1s should be compared to the Senior level is laughable. NCAAs has limited eligibility, an artificial end date, and academic restrictions. It is not a system for determining the best wrestler, it is a system for determining the best wrestler few years of their high school graduation that has achieved certain test scores, has been accepted to a D1 school, attends said school full-time, and maintains decent grades at said school.

Take out the age restriction, the max of four years, and everything academic and that would be THE APEX OF FOLKSTYLE WRESTLING.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, jdowntown said:

Come on man. Why are there so few cradles in the international styles? Do just a tiny bit of analysis and you will see that the rules of the international styles simply don't encourage pins.

Guys on bottom don't have to do anything and therefore are not obligated to open themselves up at all. That is why 95% of the time when someone gets taken down, boom lay and pray practically every time, no variety, just stall it out for 5 seconds. If they had to say come up to a knee in order to stand up in order to improve their position, hey lookie cradles now become more viable.

I know, I know, par terre is so dull, get them back on the feet ASAP. But it comes at a cost. You may call it boring or stalling, but to me mat wrestling is the soul of the sport.

Jdowntown:  I too love the mat wrestling and more so if top guy is working toward a pin.  More grueling type of wrestler on top that is punishing.  I don't like the 4 points for tilts though as I think this has actually reduced the type of riding that worked for pins.  I will mention though that par terre defense may appear to be "lay and pray" but in actuality there is an art to it.  I made some videos to help others get better at par terre and it does frustrate me to no end how many guys give up turns from underneath.  Anyway, good conversations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZQM6ctICJs

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, John Morgan said:

Jdowntown:  I too love the mat wrestling and more so if top guy is working toward a pin.  More grueling type of wrestler on top that is punishing.  I don't like the 4 points for tilts though as I think this has actually reduced the type of riding that worked for pins.  I will mention though that par terre defense may appear to be "lay and pray" but in actuality there is an art to it.  I made some videos to help others get better at par terre and it does frustrate me to no end how many guys give up turns from underneath.  Anyway, good conversations. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZQM6ctICJs

 

John, were you just laying there when your brothers were trying to rip your soul out during greco parterre sessions?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To me, anyway, "lay and pray" is more about the predominant position the bottom man is in vs. actually just laying there and praying.  Much of the position IS laying on your stomach, with elbows in and palms up, with fingers outward.  This LOOKS like you are "laying and praying".  Now, that doesn't mean there isn't an art to blocking off the top man's attempt to gain positions.  However, it DOES mean that the amount of activity on bottom pales in comparison to what HAS to be done in folkstyle.

Even what John showed, which is admittedly very solid and effective in Free/Greco, would flat out be stalling in Folk.

With that said, I DO truly appreciate great gut defense and even those that can score from parterre. I just think folks mat version is infinitely better and 100% more demanding!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How many wrestlers do we get to send to the Olympics once every 4 years?  Or once a year to the Worlds.  I don't believe revamping our entire system justifies the change.  Guys like Baumgardner, Snyder, Burrows, and many, many others were able to adjust pretty well. Go watch freestyle and enjoy yourself. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
How many wrestlers do we get to send to the Olympics once every 4 years?  Or once a year to the Worlds.  I don't believe revamping our entire system justifies the change.  Guys like Baumgardner, Snyder, Burrows, and many, many others were able to adjust pretty well. Go watch freestyle and enjoy yourself. 
There's predictive text typos, and then theres "Burrows".
Opinion excluded.

But yeah strictly Folkstyle guys enjoy it.

Go USA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...