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Yianni/Zain Ruling

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It's a hard question that needs to be answered.  Can we as a sport learn and improve from the scoring difficulties we've had this season alone?  Can we ever expect a more subjective clarification on who scores in these incredible scrambles that we are seeing in the sport?  Is that even possible?  The product is as good as it's ever been.  I never thought I'd see scrambling like this in international wrestling.  Holy smokes, sometimes I don't know who deserves the points myself, but then again, I'm not trained to do so.  A concrete explanation and rule interpretation immediately during and after the replay would be mo-betta! ***I'm accepting my Captain Obvious award later in the lobby.  Stop by for autographs and a little giggle juice.

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If the decision provides clarity with regards to what happened and why it is or is not ok, I am OK with either decision.  I think both are phenomenal wrestlers.

I will not be happy if it does not provide clarity on what the rules are or how to interpret them.  Or if it says the rules were not followed but too bad.

For example, if the decision says the refs have the ability to go back into the match to review a scoring decision that there was not sufficient agreement, thus the ruling stands, ok.  Those are the rules.  I would be ok with the decision.  But I would suggest that this rule needs to be revisited to rethink the idea of bringing the match back to that point where the score was changed (as in folk style).

I do lean Yianni as a fan, but I’ve been a fan of Zain as well.  

 

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8 hours ago, cu155 said:

Sure, but what percent are framing the reason as 'challenges are bad for the sport'.  

They are bad for the sport. 

This is in addition to the fact that the crew of officials matside are in the best position to score the match.

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42 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

They are bad for the sport. 

This is in addition to the fact that the crew of officials matside are in the best position to score the match.

What is bad for the sport is that no one in the RAC had any idea how or why the result was reversed; even the commentators were incredulous.  The decision seemed (and still seems) arbitrary and capricious.  That is bad for the sport.

Edited by red blades

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Rules that are not rules, lack of explanations from governing bodies or officials, bad for the sport.  

There needs to be an effort by the sports governing bodies to make the rules clear.  Can do by putting out way more videos of tricky situations and explain how the scoring should work.  This includes tricky scoring and dispute situations.  

A coach utilizing a documented protest procedure explicitly created for the purpose of disputing what the coach considers an egregious breaking of the rules in a phenomenally high stakes match, is not bad for the sport.

TBar seems to feel, by his comments above, that no matter how bad a wrestler is wronged,  the coach should NEVER protest once a hand is raised by an official.  That is a reasonable stance.  

I expect he will come on here and slam Cael, and Penn State in general, hard should he ever file a protest (ha, I don’t actually expect that — he will go quiet or find a way to justify and exception). 

 

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2 hours ago, headshuck said:

But yet Cael in a live ESPN interview at nationals, questions their call in RBYs loss.

Tons of coaches question calls. Happens all the time. Filing an appeal written by Cornell lawyers that drags lots of people into an arbitration hearing and drags on for months with a final ruling made behind closed doors is a whole nother thing. 

Edited by TBar1977

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1 hour ago, red blades said:

What is bad for the sport is that no one in the RAC had any idea how or why the result was reversed; even the commentators were incredulous.  The decision seemed (and still seems) arbitrary and capricious.  That is bad for the sport.

How is it arbitrary? They had three different scores for that final sequence. The judges looked at the sequence and scored it. They chose one of the three scores. How is that any different than any other brick toss. 

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1 hour ago, nom said:

Rules that are not rules, lack of explanations from governing bodies or officials, bad for the sport.  

There needs to be an effort by the sports governing bodies to make the rules clear.  Can do by putting out way more videos of tricky situations and explain how the scoring should work.  This includes tricky scoring and dispute situations.  

A coach utilizing a documented protest procedure explicitly created for the purpose of disputing what the coach considers an egregious breaking of the rules in a phenomenally high stakes match, is not bad for the sport.

TBar seems to feel, by his comments above, that no matter how bad a wrestler is wronged,  the coach should NEVER protest once a hand is raised by an official.  That is a reasonable stance.  

I expect he will come on here and slam Cael, and Penn State in general, hard should he ever file a protest (ha, I don’t actually expect that — he will go quiet or find a way to justify and exception). 

 

Cael was in the same relative position when Taylor lost to Cox on a Slip-N-Slide Mat that was in no condition to be wrestled on. He complained about it, but did not drag that into a long drawn out appeals process. Cael accepted the result. Koll got lawyers involved. Huge difference. 

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3 hours ago, TBar1977 said:

This is in addition to the fact that the crew of officials matside are in the best position to score the match.

Yet they scored it one way live, then turned around and scored it completely differently while looking at the video (in which they are no longer in any better of a position to score it than anyone else that watched the video). So the argument that they were in the best position to score the match goes out the window. I would like USAWrestling (or UWW or anyone) to come out and tell us what the correct scoring of that scenario should be. Not doing so adds to why there is still so much confusion over how these situations should be scored.

22 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Cael was in the same relative position when Taylor lost to Cox on a Slip-N-Slide Mat that was in no condition to be wrestled on. He complained about it, but did not drag that into a long drawn out appeals process. Cael accepted the result. Koll got lawyers involved. Huge difference. 

Are you really comparing a match in which one guy was winning when the match ended and then the refs changed the score and ruled the other guy the winner, to a match in which one guys sweats a lot? Ridiculous.

Do you think Cael was making some sort of statement against litigating the outcome of wrestling matches by not taking the Taylor/Cox match to arbitration because J'den sweats (a lot)? Do you believe Koll would bring in lawyers if one of his guys has to wrestle a sweaty guy?

Edited by Crotalus

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10 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Yet they scored it one way live, then turned around and scored it completely differently while looking at the video (in which they are no longer in any better of a position to score it than anyone else that watched the video). So the argument that they were in the best position to score the match goes out the window. I would like USAWrestling (or UWW or anyone) to come out and tell us what the correct scoring of that scenario should be. Not doing so adds to why there is still so much confusion over how these situations should be scored.

Are you really comparing a match in which one guy was winning when the match ended and then the refs changed the score and ruled the other guy the winner, to a match in which one guys sweats a lot? Ridiculous.

Do you think Cael was making some sort of statement against litigating the outcome of wrestling matches by not taking the Taylor/Cox match to arbitration because J'den sweats (a lot)? Do you believe Koll would bring in lawyers if one of his guys has to wrestle a sweaty guy?

 

When you have three different scores on the mat there MUST be a review per the rules. They reviewed and scored it. That is how it is supposed top happen, again, per the rules. And that IS what happened. You just don't like the way they scored it. I am guessing had they scored it 2 for Yianni 0 for Zain at the table then you'd be fine with the procedure. 

I am not comparing sweat to scoring, I am comparing the circumstances that could possibly lead to an arbitration. The condition of the mat is one such circumstance. 

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57 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

Cael was in the same relative position when Taylor lost to Cox on a Slip-N-Slide Mat that was in no condition to be wrestled on. He complained about it, but did not drag that into a long drawn out appeals process. Cael accepted the result. Koll got lawyers involved. Huge difference. 

A) was not even remotely close to being the “same relative situation”

2) That’s correct he didn’t follow the written procedures and file a protest, he instead threw a chair at the official.  A clear indication of acceptance. NOW THAT is classy and good for the sport!!

Edited by Lurker

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6 minutes ago, Lurker said:

A) was not even remotely close to being the “same relative situation”

2) That’s correct he didn’t follow the written procedures and file a protest, he instead threw a chair at the official.  A clear indication of acceptance. NOW THAT is classy and good for the sport!!

Chair throw is what it is, but it doesn't take the sport thru legal manueverings behind closed doors ala Koll's Cornell based challenge. Cael probably regrets it, but in the moment it was understandable. Koll gave a legal challenge a lot of thought and took the sport down this road trashing some good people along the way. 

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21 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

You just don't like the way they scored it. I am guessing had they scored it 2 for Yianni 0 for Zain at the table then you'd be fine with the procedure. 

I am not comparing sweat to scoring, I am comparing the circumstances that could possibly lead to an arbitration. The condition of the mat is one such circumstance. 

Well, I don't like the way it all played out, but I have zero rooting interest in one over the other (I am a Mizzou fan, but am also a fan of both Zain and Yianni). I am also not in favor of arbitrating the outcome of matches, but I understand Yianni et al. going that route given what a cluster that was. (It is also hardly a problem that has been bogging down USA wrestling as it is very rare for this to happen)

21 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

I am not comparing sweat to scoring, I am comparing the circumstances that could possibly lead to an arbitration. The condition of the mat is one such circumstance. 

How? This was not the mat at Beat the Streets a couple years ago. The mat was slippery because J'den sweats. Cael would get laughed out of court (or wherever arbitration is held) if he tried to file some kind of complaint over that.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

Cael was in the same relative position when Taylor lost to Cox on a Slip-N-Slide Mat that was in no condition to be wrestled on. He complained about it, but did not drag that into a long drawn out appeals process. Cael accepted the result. Koll got lawyers involved. Huge difference. 

You keep talking about lawyers.  Does the documented appeal process, which is there for this very purpose, call for no lawyers?  Why do you keep mentioning (Cornell) lawyers?

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10 minutes ago, Crotalus said:

Well, I don't like the way it all played out, but I have zero rooting interest in one over the other (I am a Mizzou fan, but am also a fan of both Zain and Yianni). I am also not in favor of arbitrating the outcome of matches, but I understand Yianni et al. going that route given what a cluster that was. (It is also hardly a problem that has been bogging down USA wrestling as it is very rare for this to happen)

How? This was not the mat at Beat the Streets a couple years ago. The mat was slippery because J'den sweats. Cael would get laughed out of court (or wherever arbitration is held) if he tried to file some kind of complaint over that.

I'm just saying mat condition can be arbitrated. Cael didn't go down that road for just the reason you stated, plus maybe he just wouldn't arbitrate anyway. And nothing can be done about how heavily Cox perspires, but it doesn't change the fact that the match in question played out on a Slip-N-Slide Mat not fit for legit competition. Not sure what can be done about it though. 

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7 minutes ago, klehner said:

You keep talking about lawyers.  Does the documented appeal process, which is there for this very purpose, call for no lawyers?  Why do you keep mentioning (Cornell) lawyers?

Because Koll brought them up, and now instead of wrestling officials deciding an outcome we now have LAWYERS getting involved in wrestling matches. You don't want lawyers brought up, then don't bring them to the table. 

You seem pretty dang upset that lawyers get mentioned. Maybe you actually realize this isn't a good look. 

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32 minutes ago, TBar1977 said:

 

When you have three different scores on the mat there MUST be a review per the rules. They reviewed and scored it. That is how it is supposed top happen, again, per the rules. And that IS what happened. You just don't like the way they scored it. I am guessing had they scored it 2 for Yianni 0 for Zain at the table then you'd be fine with the procedure. 

I am not comparing sweat to scoring, I am comparing the circumstances that could possibly lead to an arbitration. The condition of the mat is one such circumstance. 

It is not a review when there is disagreement between referee, judge and chairman.  It is a "consultation" among the three to find a majority, with a wrestler able to challenge the decision that comes out of the consultation.  A review based on a challenge has different person(s) making the decision as to the correct call, the refereeing delegate (jury).  This is a key distinction that you keep missing.

The rules absolutely were not followed. No consultation occurred to find a majority.  A challenge was accepted. 

If arbitrator finds the challenge was properly accepted, the lack of consultation will not really matter as the jury's review seems to be de novo. They can decide on whatever call they want and their decision is final.  Whether the challenge was properly accepted has been belabored, but it is the major question.

If the challenge was not properly accepted, you have the rules not being followed but Yianni winning match 2.  You probably do not want Zain to have his attorneys get involved to argue that match 2 should be re-wrestled though.

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1 hour ago, TBar1977 said:

I'm just saying mat condition can be arbitrated. Cael didn't go down that road for just the reason you stated, plus maybe he just wouldn't arbitrate anyway. And nothing can be done about how heavily Cox perspires, but it doesn't change the fact that the match in question played out on a Slip-N-Slide Mat not fit for legit competition. Not sure what can be done about it though. 

You are still effectively claiming that the Taylor/Cox match could have been arbitrated, and is therefore comparable, because J'den sweats a lot. That is the only reason the mat was slippery and in your opinion "not fit for legit competition". That is absolutely ridiculous. You're just making excuses for Taylor's loss and it has nothing to do with, or is in no way similar to the current Zain/Yianni situation.

Edited by Crotalus

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